I was talking with an artist friend of mine and mentioned that 164 inner driver door handles are getting very difficult to get hold of. He mentioned that he can cast a handle in brass if I need it. He works with bronze and brass. So the question is , will brass work for this application? I will have him make the fork thicker to take the stress. If you guys think it will work I can have him make a few. Color might be a problem but I'm sure that can be overcome.
adamsc
I am just a wrench turner not a scientist, metallurgist or engineer but wonder is a thin brass casting would be strong enough?
Yes, you would not want to copy the exact design as the OEM. It has a couple of bad design details which cause these failures. As you mention, some locations would have to be thicker, etc. Will have to look at my broken parts to see what it would take. There appear to be two locations which are understrength. One is the fork area, the other is at the base of the inner pull.
Might also look up the metal allowables to compare brass or bronze strengths against the crap they use, whatever it is.
Well, ok, it looks like brass would work ok, as it has at least the same if not better strength allowables than the "pot" metal, probably zinc die casting alloy, used for these handles. This material us used because the material is relatively inexpensive, and has a lower melting point which allows the steel dies to last much longer, thus saving money for the manufacturer.
The zinc die casting alloy has a tensile allowable of about 45 ksi, regular brass is about 45 ksi, whereas "high strength" yellow brass has an allowable of about 65 ksi or better. Bronze, if the high strength manganese alloy, has an tensile allowable of around 100 ksi, although regular commercial bronze is about 35 or a little better.
So, using the correct brass would work, with allowables at least equal to the casting zinc alloy, and if one were able to change the dimensions/shape of the critical sections, you could end up with a more viable longer lasting handle. High strength bronze would be better, but don't know the relative costs of the base materials.
Might also look up the metal allowables to compare brass or bronze strengths against the crap they use, whatever it is.
Well, ok, it looks like brass would work ok, as it has at least the same if not better strength allowables than the "pot" metal, probably zinc die casting alloy, used for these handles. This material us used because the material is relatively inexpensive, and has a lower melting point which allows the steel dies to last much longer, thus saving money for the manufacturer.
The zinc die casting alloy has a tensile allowable of about 45 ksi, regular brass is about 45 ksi, whereas "high strength" yellow brass has an allowable of about 65 ksi or better. Bronze, if the high strength manganese alloy, has an tensile allowable of around 100 ksi, although regular commercial bronze is about 35 or a little better.
So, using the correct brass would work, with allowables at least equal to the casting zinc alloy, and if one were able to change the dimensions/shape of the critical sections, you could end up with a more viable longer lasting handle. High strength bronze would be better, but don't know the relative costs of the base materials.
Brass is not suitable because it will bend far too easily. Bronze would be stronger. The white metal used in the original is satisfactory as regards metal choice. The problems with the handles are the casting design and most probably the quality of the casting. Thicker and deeper ribs would solve the problems with the factory design. If possible use bronze and if it would fit the space then design deeper and thicker ribbing at the stress point. A slightly "clumsy" casting using the original handle to create the mold would likely produce thicker and deeper ribbing anyway.
Yes, you are correct in saying that the "white" metal, or die casting zinc, will probably work if the design is "stronger", operating stresses lower to below the fatigue thresholds for that material. However, having used brass, I'm not sure that the higher strength alloys of brass, such as "high strength" yellow brass, are too flexible, might also give a better fatigue life. That's the whole point with them. And brass was mentioned because the fellow was used to casting with it. If bronze works, so be it, although, according to my Mark's and Materials Engineering Handbooks, bronze wouldn't necessarily be a better choice, according to the allowables listed, as above, but can't argue with whatever works.
As you suggest, I would first try the correct alloy of the zinc "pot" or "white" metal with modified designs in certain areas, mainly the base of the forks, and also the "H" section of the handle half way from the pull to the forks. Simply put, they need more x-sectional area and higher moment of inertia to reduce the tensile fatigue stresses in bending.
Making some of these for a decent price would be a boon for us.
The outside door handle is considerable trickier because of the little cantilevered arm which does the pulling. Makes a tricky casting, but I can see how the outer part which rips out in that area can be strengthen, however, in a new casting.
As you suggest, I would first try the correct alloy of the zinc "pot" or "white" metal with modified designs in certain areas, mainly the base of the forks, and also the "H" section of the handle half way from the pull to the forks. Simply put, they need more x-sectional area and higher moment of inertia to reduce the tensile fatigue stresses in bending.
Making some of these for a decent price would be a boon for us.
The outside door handle is considerable trickier because of the little cantilevered arm which does the pulling. Makes a tricky casting, but I can see how the outer part which rips out in that area can be strengthen, however, in a new casting.
I Am A Metallurgist
Either brass or bronze would be stronger than the zinc die casting currently used. Both alloys would require thicker cross sections than currently used, due to gravity casting rather than die casting. I think your artist friend is thinking about investment casting, where a wax mold is made of the part, which is then coated with a ceramic slurry. This is a common process used for "one off" or limited production parts, such a jewerly. Each part to be cast is first carved in wax. Therefore. it's good for very limited production. The wax molds can also be produced using automated processes, but this requires higher "initial" cost to produce a die for the wax mold. Think that the first part in production costs a ton, but subsequent parts cost a buck or two. In comparison, hand carving one part and casting it is cheap, but making a lot of parts by this method is expensive. It all depends upon how many parts you want to produce.
The brass part could be subsequently "chrome" plated similar to the current zinc plated parts.
So probably possible to make a few parts, but not practical for multiple parts unless it's really a lot. It's the in between where you're screwed!
Either brass or bronze would be stronger than the zinc die casting currently used. Both alloys would require thicker cross sections than currently used, due to gravity casting rather than die casting. I think your artist friend is thinking about investment casting, where a wax mold is made of the part, which is then coated with a ceramic slurry. This is a common process used for "one off" or limited production parts, such a jewerly. Each part to be cast is first carved in wax. Therefore. it's good for very limited production. The wax molds can also be produced using automated processes, but this requires higher "initial" cost to produce a die for the wax mold. Think that the first part in production costs a ton, but subsequent parts cost a buck or two. In comparison, hand carving one part and casting it is cheap, but making a lot of parts by this method is expensive. It all depends upon how many parts you want to produce.
The brass part could be subsequently "chrome" plated similar to the current zinc plated parts.
So probably possible to make a few parts, but not practical for multiple parts unless it's really a lot. It's the in between where you're screwed!
Are we talking solid brass here or what?
Having dealt with many solid brass door handles in the building industry these are the best and most expensive of all....
Brass is also very heavy.
Bronze is garbage.....looks nice and can be easily molded into nice designs but is very weak.
I know that brass is more malleable than bronze but that is wherein lies its strength.
Bronze fittings in my experience do not tolerate stress well whereas brass is incredibly strong.
I always thought that brass was very expensive......
Having dealt with many solid brass door handles in the building industry these are the best and most expensive of all....
Brass is also very heavy.
Bronze is garbage.....looks nice and can be easily molded into nice designs but is very weak.
I know that brass is more malleable than bronze but that is wherein lies its strength.
Bronze fittings in my experience do not tolerate stress well whereas brass is incredibly strong.
I always thought that brass was very expensive......
Strength of materials aside, a bronze handle would look very cool with no finish needed after it's made. It could be left natural and would take on the look that a bronze sculpture does, which appears to me as an "artist" (well Graphic Designer really). A brass handle would have to be painted or chromed though some would like a chrome handle in an early model (like the later 164) I'm sure. Maybe we should all be strengthening our existing handles with JB Weld on the backsides just for insurance. 
Charles
Charles
"Bronze is garbage.....looks nice and can be easily molded into nice designs but is very weak"
Well, the published allowables don't indicate that for certain alloys, which why I said to use the proper alloys for each of these materials. Of course, that might be a problem.
I would think that color is the least of our worries in making some of these.
Well, the published allowables don't indicate that for certain alloys, which why I said to use the proper alloys for each of these materials. Of course, that might be a problem.
I would think that color is the least of our worries in making some of these.
"bases upon your preconceived notions, is totally meaningless"
Don't look at me, I know only the physical characteristics of the metals and stress analysis/functionality of the part. I do think it would be neat if someone could come up with a few, but that's not my area.
No need, though, to bad mouth those who at least have the idea, even if it is not practical.
Don't look at me, I know only the physical characteristics of the metals and stress analysis/functionality of the part. I do think it would be neat if someone could come up with a few, but that's not my area.
No need, though, to bad mouth those who at least have the idea, even if it is not practical.
Bronze is stiffer than brass. Strength isn't the issue. Brass will bend where bronze will not. Nobody ever made a brass sword and there was no "brass age". A doorknob is not a lever. Even lever type door handles not common in North America are low load devices.
The handles of a car do not take much load if properly operated. North Americans tend to slam car doors and reef on the handles as if every entry and exit were an emergency. It is a cultural thing, hard to explain and apparently impossible to modify. I wince every time a non car buff enters or exits one of my fine European cars. Our Mazda could care less how hard you reef on the door handles or slam the doors!
I have noticed that the door handles on the Alfa experience higher loadings if the door latch mechanisms are not lubricated regularly. Otherwise, the failures are likely caused by careless operation as it only takes once to overload the door handle to failure. That would be when the fancy brass handle would bend like damp spaghetti.
The handles of a car do not take much load if properly operated. North Americans tend to slam car doors and reef on the handles as if every entry and exit were an emergency. It is a cultural thing, hard to explain and apparently impossible to modify. I wince every time a non car buff enters or exits one of my fine European cars. Our Mazda could care less how hard you reef on the door handles or slam the doors!
I have noticed that the door handles on the Alfa experience higher loadings if the door latch mechanisms are not lubricated regularly. Otherwise, the failures are likely caused by careless operation as it only takes once to overload the door handle to failure. That would be when the fancy brass handle would bend like damp spaghetti.
"Bronze is stiffer than brass. Strength isn't the issue. Brass will bend where bronze will not."
Not to continue this, but it depends on the alloy, as both brass and bronze have the same modulus of elasticity, and the same elastic limit, depending on the alloy. Brass has a much wider range of elastic limit than bronze, meaning that you are probably used to low quality alloys of that metal (brass).
But, no matter, we've been told that we are wasting our time even talking about replicating the inside handles, lol.
Not to continue this, but it depends on the alloy, as both brass and bronze have the same modulus of elasticity, and the same elastic limit, depending on the alloy. Brass has a much wider range of elastic limit than bronze, meaning that you are probably used to low quality alloys of that metal (brass).
But, no matter, we've been told that we are wasting our time even talking about replicating the inside handles, lol.
A while back, I looked into having these handles cast up. I was thinking in brass, or aluminum, but making up new patterns to strengthen the design, and also to make levers that can be used for both front and rear doors - they really are very close in shape - and this could be done with a little careful work on the patterns.
That would entail one pattern for left, and one for the right side. Some finish machining would be needed, but not much. I was thinking only of the 12v models, as 24v models are not so hard to come by, yet.
The casting house was able and willing to make some, if I provided the patterns. The question I couldn't get answered, to establish the base cost, was........how many?
Sooooo?
How many?
That would entail one pattern for left, and one for the right side. Some finish machining would be needed, but not much. I was thinking only of the 12v models, as 24v models are not so hard to come by, yet.
The casting house was able and willing to make some, if I provided the patterns. The question I couldn't get answered, to establish the base cost, was........how many?
Sooooo?
How many?
The OEM are indeed very similar, the rear having offset forks, evidently to clear the insides of the rear door. They can be used in the front by cutting off the forks and adding new steel forks in the correct location, as in how they are repaired, to match a front latch handle. Of course, they will still have the risk of breaking as the fronts do. The offset forks for the rear appearing to be the only difference between the two handles. It is a real pity that the designers didn't make these such that they could be flipped from side to side on the car, as well. Easily could have, but what were they thinking, or perhaps smoking?
It appears that one good way to make a replacement handle which would be suitable for both front and rear doors would be to make a handle with both sets of forks, and then trimming off the unneeded set of forks for the relevant door.
As for how many, how many 164's are left running here and abroad, assuming there would be overseas sales? I suppose that one might assume that half of them might need at one time or another a new inside door handle.
One might question whether or not there have been failures in the 94/95 handles, and whether or not they could be used, or actually even available. I don't have a 94/95 handle to compare. Anyone know?
It appears that one good way to make a replacement handle which would be suitable for both front and rear doors would be to make a handle with both sets of forks, and then trimming off the unneeded set of forks for the relevant door.
As for how many, how many 164's are left running here and abroad, assuming there would be overseas sales? I suppose that one might assume that half of them might need at one time or another a new inside door handle.
One might question whether or not there have been failures in the 94/95 handles, and whether or not they could be used, or actually even available. I don't have a 94/95 handle to compare. Anyone know?
Thanks for all the input guys. Having showed my friend a broken handle he suggests aluminum might actually be the best option, though willing to use brass or bronze if I tell him. Said could not do anything till end of may as is very busy right now, but will make me a handle and keep the mold if more needed.
I'm sure one could weld up an acceptable handle given enough time. I have thought of that more than once. So far I haven't had the need.
The problem I see is a lack of demand for casting new ones. I see door handles on ebay not drawing too many bids. Sure, the left front handles sell, but the rest are very slow sellers. These cars are getting rarer by the day and Alfa is letting spare parts dry up it seems. People are letting these cars go to the scrapper. Sure, an improved handle would be great, but I don't think there would be many buyers for a $75-$100 or up door handle. I would think they would have to cost that much or more for it to be worth anybody's time.
More importantly, let's make sure every car we know that is being parted is stripped clean of it's rare and unobtainable parts not just door handles. Buy them up and make them available to others here or on ebay. You might even make a little money in the process. I think there are enough handles out there, we just need to round them up and not let any go to waste.
Charles
The problem I see is a lack of demand for casting new ones. I see door handles on ebay not drawing too many bids. Sure, the left front handles sell, but the rest are very slow sellers. These cars are getting rarer by the day and Alfa is letting spare parts dry up it seems. People are letting these cars go to the scrapper. Sure, an improved handle would be great, but I don't think there would be many buyers for a $75-$100 or up door handle. I would think they would have to cost that much or more for it to be worth anybody's time.
More importantly, let's make sure every car we know that is being parted is stripped clean of it's rare and unobtainable parts not just door handles. Buy them up and make them available to others here or on ebay. You might even make a little money in the process. I think there are enough handles out there, we just need to round them up and not let any go to waste.
Charles
"Sure, the left front handles sell, but the rest are very slow sellers"
Well, yes, that is the problem, in that the other door latches just don't break at such a high rate because they don't get used as many times in the life of the car. Remember, this is a fatigue problem, based upon how many times the latch is overloaded.
Now, since the inner latches with the pull are pretty much interchangeable back to front, and can be repaired in almost all cases anyway, they are not really a problem; however, the outer latch is a different animal, in that once broken, it would be difficult to repair due to the resulting appearance if nothing else and lack of a strong enough adhesive, although Richard is trying one. Best to reinforce an unbroken one for max strength, but if a broken one can be somehow repaired, that would be great as well. Can this pot metal stuff be silver soldered or brazed? I don't know the answer to that. That would be ideal, to restore and refinish the part.
Another question is, can the rear latch be modified to work in the front door? It is just the outer half of the outer latch which is subject to breaking.
So, one solution to pursue would be figuring a way to fab up the outer half of the outer latch, since almost all of the available ones from wrecked (notice I didn't say "parted") 164's are already damaged to some extent. That's what we are exploring. Nothing wrong with that.
Well, yes, that is the problem, in that the other door latches just don't break at such a high rate because they don't get used as many times in the life of the car. Remember, this is a fatigue problem, based upon how many times the latch is overloaded.
Now, since the inner latches with the pull are pretty much interchangeable back to front, and can be repaired in almost all cases anyway, they are not really a problem; however, the outer latch is a different animal, in that once broken, it would be difficult to repair due to the resulting appearance if nothing else and lack of a strong enough adhesive, although Richard is trying one. Best to reinforce an unbroken one for max strength, but if a broken one can be somehow repaired, that would be great as well. Can this pot metal stuff be silver soldered or brazed? I don't know the answer to that. That would be ideal, to restore and refinish the part.
Another question is, can the rear latch be modified to work in the front door? It is just the outer half of the outer latch which is subject to breaking.
So, one solution to pursue would be figuring a way to fab up the outer half of the outer latch, since almost all of the available ones from wrecked (notice I didn't say "parted") 164's are already damaged to some extent. That's what we are exploring. Nothing wrong with that.
How about a Porsche RS solution? I seriously considered rigging up a rope pull when my rear right inside handle broke. Then I remembered an Italian bodyshop near me had made two smashed 164 into one leaving a complete set of door handles left over, fronts from one wreck and rears for the other. I received a free one!
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