Yea, Samer, I think it's time to have some work done on that car. That bit of sheet metal or frame rail, under the floor near the exhaust is in pretty bad shape. And, I agree with others, there seems to be some cover up on your car.

 

Okay, swallowing the bitter pill now and will lay a bit low under the radar for a few weeks before diving into this can of worms.
This being the 3rd world, too much money was sunk into import duties a couple of years ago to turn my back on the old girl, and I'm not the type to dump my bag of crap on some other soul. So, gotta salvage her as best as I can before I put it on the market again.
Meanwhile, you good folks feel free to share photos of good order / correct vs what I have on my car (vertical seam/cross-member/floor sills/etc).

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If you will be spraying the sill compartments, have a look with a scope inside before deciding what to do next.

 

With the rise in value of 105's those new to 105's may have a false expectation that modern car rust proofing techniques existed in the 60's/70's, they did not! It's understandable you would get a shock when it's not the case. As more and more of these 'needy cars' come onto the market, the new owners will be faced with the challenges of rectifying them. You can only save them one at a time, and in 2019 the 105 renaissance has given rise a huge array of parts and individuals specializing in repairing them. So there is no excuses for not fixing it to as close as possible to factory condition. So the person that ends up with the car in 50 years time spends less time praying as the repairs were finally done correctly!

I have seen this scenario before of the car appearing okay, paint in average or better condition, but underneath hiding some nasty surprises, like angle iron, merged outer sills, hiding missing parts of the inner sills, etc. It would be a different conversation if the seller said I'm selling a car that although drives, it's for sale for the value of the parts as it's not road worthy body wise as it has rust issues, or the body is poorly repaired that is why the tail lights don't fit, we have all been there, only years later finding out, thus the bitter pill you are referring to. Or if you are buying a body that is presenting with rust and it's advertised it's rusted and comes with a suggested list of replacement panels, then it's up to you to collect as many pictures as you can and inspect it with a magnet etc. So when the paint, primer, filler and rust finally are removed, at least you were already expecting the worse and you can further refine the list of panels required.
Good luck.

 

I am not "completely" green behind the ears when it comes to 105's as I've owned my 82 spider since 1995 and have a reasonably clean & properly restored GTA clone alongside tge GTV. I know to look at the spare wheel well, the wheel arches, the strut mounts, the bulkhead, etc... I also tell my friends never to inspect a car at night and always to look at the underbody with a magnet in hand.
Unfortunately, the reality is that you can do none of these things when buying remotely sight unseen, so one depends on the integrity of the seller and the honesty of them photos... Well, this car photographs well inside and out. It came to my posession directly from the museum floor where it sat for years, proven by the service records that extend back to its original registration in 1975. I didn't sink my life savings into it but didn't buy the cheapest example out there either and, no, I did not buy it with any guarantee written or implied.
If I were to guess what went wrong I would guess that the car must have been cared for cosmetically while being stored in a damp area or over humid grounds rather than "indoors" before seller discovered the rot and overcompensated with a rich coat of spray to the underbody.
That said, while the chassis & subframe IS indeed the backbone of the GTV, the car is not without value and far from being unfit to drive even as is. It did pass the strict Austrian TUV inspection before coming to my posession (largely thanks to that well painted underbody I bet [emoji849]) and it shows and drives nicely all things considered, barring the fact that I did accidently discover the rust behind the sills and put it up on the lift for proper inspection.
I have no plans to hand it over money in hand to a smiling sandblaster, but I do plan to strip it and hopefully replace whichever panels can't be salvaged and address any remaing rust issues with any of the loads of material available on the market, be it paint on applications like POR 15 or sprayable applications like eastwood's inner frame rust conversion spray. The world has advanced quite a bit since the "russian steel" fiasco of the 1970's.
Am I worried about quality in a place like Jordan... Heck yes... No cellette, no rotisserie, no professional panel beaters... But is it worth it to preserve one of the only two GTVs in the country? Is it really worth no more than $10k on a shiny day? Hmmm... Yes.

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@sbadaro

I started a project that was a drivable spider in every sense handled well, I knew there were rust issues,
once opened up well it's like the gift horse. That said will do it right and enjoy for as long as God is willing. The next owner will have a very good car.

https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/sp...ms/spider-105-115-series-1966-1994/671750-enough-already-am-i-old-nonsense.html

 

Well, next owner will be my sons so I'll try my best (they're paying for it one way or another anyway).

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As it turns out, all three of my 105s have varying levels of corrosion, and after much soul searching I've decided to put my priorities in order and dig into the family's egg-nest to save the old girls. College funds and retirement security are over-rated anyway.
I plan to start with the S2 spider, God willing, which already had a botched-up outer sills job (the man-child who worked on it in 2015 welded the drains shut to make sure that rust has the upper hand) and needed accident repair anyway. Spiders haven't really jumped up in value (yet) and I have found a burned S3 car with pristine floors which can be a stand-by parts donor if necessary.
Body guy and paint guy are both Syrians. Both are master craftsmen but the first is from the south (Damascus) and the other from the north (Aleppo), with very different approach to repair.
Damascus (before the stupid civil war) was a cosmopolitan city with global exposure to world markets and newer products, spares, technologies, etc... So on metal repair the craftsmen tended to be liberal with panel beating and metal shaping and cutting and welding on the premise that replacements (parts and panels or complete cars) are abundantly available.
Aleppo on the other hand was the major industrial productian hub but remained relatively isolated from global markets and the mind-set of its craftsmen was focused on preservation. Scarcity of resources translated to a more "gentle" approach to panel beating in favor of heavy use of primers and plasters to save the metal.
Pretty sure the two will get on each other's nerves, but hoping that'll be in the spider's advantage.
The shop is, well, a dump... But so far I managed (I hope [emoji848]) to convince them both to fashion a rotisserie rig and tie the car down tight before starting to cut into the underbody. I have also declared my deep phobia about broken glass (volvo... long story...) and sandblasting (no soda blasting in Jordan[emoji19]), so praying to be able to depend on dremel tools and wire brushes with the windscreen on and lots of POR15 along the edges (unless you guys convince me otherwise).
I may address some mechanical issues with the car stripped (clutch/gear bearings, engine & driveshaft mounts, etc...) but the big fear is of course the rubber and plastics once we start the strip-down in our land of scarcity and ridiculous customs duties and long shipping/clearing leadtimes... We'll see [emoji16]

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POR15 is not a cure all - and it absolutely has to be applied correctly after the metal has been prepared correctly.

Not a bad product, but finicky to use.

 

Of course it'll come "after" all the metal has been prepped and the corroded panels have been addressed, but this being my first time to use it, how do you mean "finicky to use"? What should I watch for?

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you have products like rust converters. they are efficient, durable.

You can apply directly on "clean" rust. I mean without dust.

I do not know if there are any or if you can import ...

Some example in France => best for me : ferose (you clean the pencil with water) ; rustol (you clean the pencil with gasoline

Maybe there are equivalences in other products available at your place ?

Greetings to nice Jordan !

 

Small beginnings... The spider first [emoji2764][emoji2765][emoji1665].
Removing the carpet wasn't as bad as I feared. Somd rust by the pedals from leaky heater core, some surface rust along the edges (and where the brain surgeones drilled into the body to fix the door cards... Why waste your energy original holes and stainless steel screws...).
I suppose the two cans of zinc spray I used five years ago hadn't gone to waste after all.

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I POR'ed the inside of inner, mid and outer sections of new sill/rocker pieces.

It is tricky to use - mainly the preparation of surfaces (stripped, degreased, roughed up etc). a couple of thin coats is good, as its pretty thin.

but once applied it seems very tough.

I would suggest when using it to pour what you need into a cup, and reseal the tin ASAP.
I even heard a tip that you use your MIG welder to spray gas into the can when you put the lid on.

The lid will be hard to open again as any residue POR will glue it closed, and secondly its a nightmare to get off your hands (so wear gloves!!)

 

Por15 from what I have heard must be on bare metal only and bites in best when the metal is just starting to oxidise/change to a hint of orange. it wont work over primer. you should look at some of the good threads on sill repairs here on the BB. show the panel beaters photos from these threads of what you expect. excellent high quality sills are available from places such as classic alfa and alfaholics etc. if the hourly labour rate is reasonable there, then do it properly.

cheers Ian

 

I've been biting my tongue and trying to stay out of the POR15 (rust preventative coating) discussion, but failed, sorry.

As Italcaroz said the metal needs to be rusting before POR15 (https://www.por15.com/POR-15-3-Step-Stop-Rust-System) will cling to it, which IMO means it is the WRONG product to be used when replacing rusty metal and installing nice and new rust free metal. You need to use a etch/epoxy primer, just like everybody does before they start priming and eventually final coat a body shell.

If you intend to leave in rusty metal, and can live with yourself, then yeah throw POR15 at it. Apparently it sticks like poo to a blanket ... but there are better products for protecting new steel IMO.

I believe POR15 was designed for people restoring really vintage cars with separate chassis' and the chassis is good but not perfect, and not going to be remade with new steel ... slap on POR15 and problem solved. We are restoring unitary construction cars; nearly impossible to seal completely like you could with a simple ladder chassis like on a Ford Model A.


VERY MUCH, JUST MY OPINION and yes I did manage, I think, to get it to stick to my Alfa rear axle tubes, but I don't expect it to not chip off ... but might be wrong, but I will not be using it again. Not my cup of tea.
Pete

 

Food for thought... My strategy will be to avoid sandblasting, cut & replace compromised metal, POR15 as "back-up" second line of defense (particularly over weld seam and other potential rust traps).
Hehehe... I still get a kick out of English as a second language : "sticks like **** on a blanket". [emoji1787]

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You don't see any reference in this link about rust prevention paint /abatement:
https://www.alfaholics.com/our-cars/completed-builds/gta-r-017-far-east-market/

 

Wish we had soda blasting or the banks brother's celette here in Jordan (or the finances to commission their "better than original" GTARs).
I see everyone's concerns regarding the use of POR15 in lieu of proper repair... Not my intention. Nonetheless there is "an" opportunity to be explored with such chemicals compared to traditional cut & weld then plaster & paint methods... If not from the point of view of rescuing old metal, then from the point of view of saving on restoration cost. Remember, oxidation IS a chemical process in the end, not an irreversible punishment for earthly sins.
May be I should reword the title to restoration methods and alternatives...

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I have looked into a few methods of removing rust, one method was used 80 years ago when people did not have access to costly chemicals. They would have large containers and place whole fenders in it(fenders would unbolt on older cars)
Molasses : viscous product resulting from refining sugarcane or sugar beets into sugar.
One part Molasses to say 6 parts water (I use 3 to 6 parts water). Ideal for small parts, or you can get those huge plastic 120 litre containers or a 44 gallon drum or larger and try on larger panels.
I have used it on small panels, trailing arms, rusted brake discs, nuts and bolts etc with good results.

Positives: organic molecules consume the iron oxide so not toxic. I can get the molasses for $30 for a 20 litres, used as a food supplement for farm animals, so available at my local feed stock animal store.
Negatives: stains your hands brown (wear gloves) and eye/face protection so you don't get stained, gets smelly as organic molecules consumes the rust. Keep a lid on container, still needs air for organic molecule to live. Better not to have containers close to living spaces or do it when it's peak summer temperatures.

Steve

 

My paint guy (garage owner) doesn't seem to like my metal guy (outside contractor) [emoji849]... Had to disappear for medical tests (old age catches up when you're not looking : frikkin high blood pressure and now, yes, transient ischemic attack(TIA), divorce proceedings with big tobacco in process) so I asked paint guy to strip the hood and leave the metal bare for the metal guy to inspect while I was away. Sure enough, he strips the paint but proceeds to fix a couple of dents and cover up a slightly rusted patch and cover it all with base coat BEFORE I or the metal guy could view and inspect...
I'm having just as much difficulty explaining to him how to rig up a simple "re-useable" rotissery instead of going on a tangent for an elaborate $$$ set-up to get to the under-body... I've got a feeling the communication will be a challenge... But, what he learns from the Spider will make life easier when time comes for the GTV.
Took more photos of the interior, some surface corrosion from a leaky heater core, but overall, I am happy. Photos of the stripped hood also much better than I expected... Needless to say, more photos coming up in a couple of days when the base paint gets stripped for the metal guy's courtesy...
I've accepted that I run more risk of loss with work while the windshield is on the car than during removal (original glass, no silicon). If anyone can post link to video or advice on removal without damaging the rubber seal and trim please share it here.

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Here is the custom rotisserie I had made up. It has good access to all the car at 5.1 m long.

 

Oh yes. Where is the shell sitting? Photos from the underside?

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Sorry only have this photo, put some text and arrows. front attachments points off suspension points used to attach dog bone arms. These pick up points I think are the strongest parts of the car.
Steve

 

Or build a shell tipper. Mine: https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/8399936-post87.html

Pete

 

Or build a shell tipper. Mine: https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/8399936-post87.html



Pete

Hi Pete, either my cell phone is having a nervous breakdown or you posted the wrong link (someone selling a 1965 project, e-mail address with no photos).

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Another go: https://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/8399936-post87.html#/topics/664396?page=9

Pete

 

Argh... May be I should rename this one more time : "HOW NOT TO FIX IT"....
Went to visit the old girl yesterday... In spite of begging and grovelling, he still used butane gas blow torch to strip the paint... [emoji849]
On a positive note, rust and REALLY crappy prior repairs are obviously there but mostly surface and not nearly as bad as I feared.

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It looks like you may need one of these https://www.alfaholics.com/parts/105-series/panels/spider/kamm-tail-upper-front-panel/

 

It certainly looks tired.

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