[John Ireland]

If you read the Alfa Owners newsletters, you will usually find that what members enjoy most about the club are the people. And I have to agree. I have a romantic place in my heart for the cars Alfa has built from beginning to now. I've wandered into the worlds of Maserati, Porsche, Ferrari, and vintage racing. The best people, across the board, have been the Alfa owners. They are the most diverse, the most enthusiastic about the other aspects of life, will have the best pot luck parties, the most humorous auctions, will be the most helpful to a competing driver at the track, and are the least impressed with money. That Alfa survived the twenty years it was gone from the American market is totally because of the passion of the owners. No one knew...or really cared...if they were going to sell cars here again. The private wrenches continued to work on them and keep their heads above water, parts supplies flourished, and the various nationwide chapters of the clubs continued to enjoy each other's friendship. When Alfa announced it was returning to the USA, many of us took a deep breath...was this the prodigal son was returning. FCA totally overshot the price when they choose to bring the 4C and the Giulia to America as their relaunch cars. One is a very expensive toy, the other is a large sedan. Neither is in the tradition of a practical sports car. They should have reinvented the Giulietta as a rear wheel drive or all wheel drive sports coupe. A real drivers car, a Boxster fighter that would have been at a price that would have motivated all the owners in the Alfa clubs to put their dollars on the table and buy one...in volumes that would have made Alfa the talk of the industry. Entry level in the high twenties...fully loaded in the mid to high thirties...yes fifty thousand less than the 4C and the Giulia QV. But the sales would be flying off the shelf as Alfa enthusiasts gobbled them up. Then, with the enthusiasm at a high, and sales to match, then bring in the Giulia. The Stelvio is as useless as all the high end SUVs...if you want a jeep, go buy one...but 95% of SUV drivers can't even navigate a Trader Joe's parking lot. Alfa should have had the guts to tell the world that the Emperor is naked. Having a second partnership with Chrysler is dumb, as dumb as Brad Pitt remarrying Angelina Jolie. Whatever, Alfa is back in the US market and not doing well here or at home. Imagining a partnership with the French is not worthy of discussion. The best it will do is provide a remake of the Columbo TV series. So Alfa owners will enjoy the Giulia as long as the warranty lasts, and then look at their 401K and have to make some hard choices. Some of us are actually wealthy and will splurge on Teslas and other techno toys. Other Alfa owners will go back to our 105 series cars and share Alfa stories over pizza and inexpensive Chianti.

 

[Speedraser]

... Electric power steering has improved to the point that it is now superior to hydraulic power steering.

You say this as though it's an incontrovertible fact. I don't know what your criteria are for "superiority," but they're different from mine. My Giulia has extremely sharp and accurate steering, and I've driven the Cayman GT4 and recent 911s, so I think I've experienced some of the best EPAS systems that exist. None of them comes remotely (pun intended) close to providing the level of feel or feedback that the hydraulic power steering of my V8 Vantage does.

 

[Speedraser]

... The lack of traditional dash instrumentation does take some getting used to, but just as we all transitioned from yesterday’s flip phones to the smartphones, there is so much innovation built in to the system that once you’ve become accustomed to it, I find there’s no going back. And purely from a driving standpoint, I find the simplicity and improved visibility of the dash layout allows me to focus just on the road.

But that's precisely the problem with a touchscreen in a car -- it requires you to not focus on the road because you must look at the screen, and therefore not at the road, while using it. Buttons and knobs can be operated entirely by feel -- while looking at the road.

 

[canguro]

People who buy Alfas generally have more enthusiasm for cars than the average car nut. That's my observation. If you like driving an Alfa you will generally have a bit of a nose for good driving cars.

The Tesla is not a good driving car. Impressive, sure, but not enjoyable as a car. It is FAR too heavy for its size and feels it. It is capable but no more. Sure it goes like the proverbial bat out of hell but very few true car nuts care about that. Tesla does not corner nor brake particularly well and the whole feel of the car is a bit dead. No Alfa drives like that. An Alfa always feels as if it's sitting right up on its tippie toes just waiting for you to change your mind. Tesla is a ponderous beast without any soul I can discern. It really is just a very quick washing machine.

LOL. I could tell from your previous post that an electric car (or was it the electric utility) must have done something truly awful and unforgivable to you. Just to be sure, no one forced me to actually like the Tesla; I previously felt like many of you do towards the brand. Having spent a few months with a Model 3, and having learned about the technology that underpins this car, I'm now convinced electrics will be the way of the future, and any mfr (FCA are you listening?) that fails to grasp that will end up on the scrap heap of automotive history.

BTW, the Giulia Quadrafoglio, which I have lusted after for several years, has similar dimensions to the Model 3 and weighs 3,800 lbs, or just 5% less than the Tesla. I will grant you that like most cars today, they are both over-weight, which is why I have a pair of proper lightweight RWD (!) roadsters in my garage, for when I want to do some canyon carving. As a daily driver that replaced a 4,600 lbs Cayenne S, the Model 3 Performance, with its very low center of gravity, 50-50 weight distribution, AWD and tremendous torque, has been perfect for my commutes. It is effort-less, reliable, and efficient. I like to save my road-side repairs for when I'm not wearing a suit.

So there you have it. From one Alfa enthusiast to others, sharing an experience (if not an epiphany) about something non-Alfa, something that I truly believe will change the automotive landscape in the years to come. Those who crave the past (and who doesn't feel some wistful nostalgia occasionally), or who aspire for simplicity, may not care for it, and I understand that Teslas are not for everyone. It wasn't for me up until now.

Now to get away from this darned keyboard and go play with my Duetto.

 

[Del]

39 Posts


#63 • 2 h ago
"But that's precisely the problem with a touchscreen in a car -- it requires you to not focus on the road because you must look at the screen, and therefore not at the road, while using it. Buttons and knobs can be operated entirely by feel -- while looking at the road".

That's certainly my experience. Touch screens are a distraction unless you have a rider along who can do the touching while you drive.

 

[canguro]

But that's precisely the problem with a touchscreen in a car -- it requires you to not focus on the road because you must look at the screen, and therefore not at the road, while using it. Buttons and knobs can be operated entirely by feel -- while looking at the road.

Coming from late model Cayenne, I know far too well what you are talking about, because that laggy screen and Porsche's infamously unlabeled buttons and knobs forced me more than a few times to have to pull over to operate the controls. Even Siri was of no help with the included ApplePlay. The ergonomics in today's cars are much too complex and exasperating.

What Tesla did was to place most of the driving-oriented controls on stalks and a few buttons on the steering wheel. It also has voice control, which seems far more advanced than on competitor cars, so there's usually no need to turn one's attention away from the road. If you still wanted to fiddle with the screen, it is iPad level fast, and occurs quickly. Like you, I still wish it had more direct controls, but Tesla, like Apple, likes to chart its own path, so buyers will be forced to adapt. My adult children, who grew up with computers and smart devices, seem to have no difficulty, so this must be a generational thing.

 

[Michael Smith]

Regulators are only just now looking into the distracted driving aspect of touch screens. The main problems with using in car phones started gaining attention with the advent of touch screen smart phones.

Using phones engages two cognitive distractions: oral and aural language processing is a very serious impairment to the brain's decision making process and, to the extent the user glances at the screen, on the phone the visual processing is also impaired.

Using touch screens impairs visual processing inputs to decision making.

We have known about this for decades from fighter pilot information interfaces. HUD were invented for fighter pilots as computerized flight and weapons control systems became prevalent, indeed the two seat fighter aircraft resorted to incorporating a second in flight computer assistant (which also tended to consume beer with the pilot after successful landings) each one of which took 20 years to build and correctly program, for this reason. Modern fighters also put a lot of control functions right onto the "steering wheel" as do F1 and other competition cars.

Touch screens are just a dumb idea. Even satnav display maps are a dumb idea. All you really need in order to navigate the two dimensional world of a driver are the directions and aural is the most efficient way to intake those, although I do like the direction and distance to next turn indicators that appear inside the main instrument display on my Jaguar, just about the only thing in Jaguar's satnav software that actually works. No driver needs a constantly moving map display. The error the electronic map makers are making is assuming drivers of cars need the same map displays as helmsmen on boats and pilots in airplanes. They don't. Drivers can see where they are at all times: on the road and between the edge and the centreline. Not so pilots and helmsmen in or on their relatively featureless "landscapes". In the case of pilots the "landscape" is invisible and three dimensional and, in fact, the chart or map display is the least useful orientation information a pilot needs. Altitude above ground and orientation to the "horizon" are critical to pilots and irrelevant to drivers. Boat helmsmen need to know the distance to solid earth, vertically and horizontally and in reality that's what marine charts are for. Otherwise, a boat navigator only needs an imagined concept of his or her location on the sea surface (submarines are a special case).

 

[ossodiseppia]

Less features, buttons and TV screens makes for a much better driving experience. The 2007 Audi A4 Avant 3.2 MT6 I had until late 2017 was one of my favorite cars. It was a very basic car with only butt warmers and moon roof for options. My favorite of all cars I have ever owned was the 2002 Jetta GLI. The only option it had was a moon roof. The acceleration was excellent and it was fast. I never really pushed it all of the way to it's top end. But, 120 mph was fairly easy. The only thing that it really needed was all wheel drive.

The 2018 Audi Allroad I bought in 2017 is be far the most hated of all cars I've ever owned. I don't know what I was thinking when I bought it. All of the "features" on that car are just too distracting and really take away from the driving experience. That 7 speed Auto doesn't help.

 

[f4driver]

Title of site is Alfabb.com Not Tesla etc. Where are the super moderators??

 

[Sekal1978]

I agree that unfortunately the future is electric for all the wrong reasons. Including that it's several times more pollutant than new internal combustion engines. (not an engineer but an environmental technician).
But WHY NOT WAIT FOR AN ELECTRIC ALFA SO YOU CAN REALLY COMPARE. Olives and beans. nothing alike, uncomparable.

 

[Del]

"Title of site is Alfabb.com Not Tesla etc. Where are the super moderators??"

As Alfa owners and drivers, some of us for a very long time, decades, we are interested in the attributes and drawbacks of the new and old Alfas as compared to other makes, and what makes them all enjoyable to drive, or not. Thus, we end up discussing what those other cars have, or don't have, in comparison. We tend not to be single minded about our cars.

The AlfaBB has many sections covering every and all models Alfa, and much has been posted in them through the many years. It will continue to be that way, even with the occasional wanderings in various related subjects as we discuss our driving world and how Alfas fit in. Allowing this wandering gives us a chance to better understand how the many owners and drivers see their Alfas, and the world around them.

Never fear, for your specific needs, the appropriate sections are always there, with people around the world always willing to provide information and answers to questions for each and every model of every year.

 

[ghnl]

Title of site is Alfabb.com Not Tesla etc. Where are the super moderators??

What do you think needs moderation? As long as the discussions are civil and do not violate the Terms Of Use (link is at the bottom of every page) I don't think we need to do any moderation.

 

[John Ireland]

As someone pointed out, your can't talk about Alfas without talking about other cars as well. When I was in vintage racing, I raced Alfas and delighted in beating the Porsches. However on the open market, Porsche has been eating Alfa's lunch since the early fifties. And Alfa had a forty year head start and a large world wide reputation...and a great car called the Giulietta. But Porsche (with nothing more than a streamlined VW) had one thing Alfa didn't have...good management. Alfa has made a great car in the Giulia...and after 4+ years has made no significant upgrades or improvements to the car. In comparison, look at what Porsche has done over the last four years with its line up. Alfa had the Milano...BMW had the 3 series. BMW kept improving their cars, Alfa let the Milano stagnate. Alfa had the Alfetta/GTV6...and let it stagnate...Porsche had the 924 and developed it into the 968 and the 944 became a racing success in SCCA. Alfa brought out the 164...a much better car than the BMW 5 series. The 5 series was a success. Today, beat up old 164s are the cheapest Alfa in the US...about $3500 to $4000...and nobody wants them. So now Alfa is back with another great car, the Giulia. And the closest news to an update after almost five years is that they might merge with Citroen Peugeot. FCA can't even make Fiat and Chrysler a success. It is incapable of doing the job Alfa needs. If Alfa is going to make a place in the US market, it has to turn to the real experts...the Alfa owners in America ...but that is who Alfa had intentionally ignored. I wish I could say I see a silver lining. I wish. But I can't.

 

[Sekal1978]

As someone pointed out, your can't talk about Alfas without talking about other cars as well. When I was in vintage racing, I raced Alfas and delighted in beating the Porsches. However on the open market, Porsche has been eating Alfa's lunch since the early fifties. And Alfa had a forty year head start and a large world wide reputation...and a great car called the Giulietta. But Porsche (with nothing more than a streamlined VW) had one thing Alfa didn't have...good management. Alfa has made a great car in the Giulia...and after 4+ years has made no significant upgrades or improvements to the car. In comparison, look at what Porsche has done over the last four years with its line up. Alfa had the Milano...BMW had the 3 series. BMW kept improving their cars, Alfa let the Milano stagnate. Alfa had the Alfetta/GTV6...and let it stagnate...Porsche had the 924 and developed it into the 968 and the 944 became a racing success in SCCA. Alfa brought out the 164...a much better car than the BMW 5 series. The 5 series was a success. Today, beat up old 164s are the cheapest Alfa in the US...about $3500 to $4000...and nobody wants them. So now Alfa is back with another great car, the Giulia. And the closest news to an update after almost five years is that they might merge with Citroen Peugeot. FCA can't even make Fiat and Chrysler a success. It is incapable of doing the job Alfa needs. If Alfa is going to make a place in the US market, it has to turn to the real experts...the Alfa owners in America ...but that is who Alfa had intentionally ignored. I wish I could say I see a silver lining. I wish. But I can't.

Alfa stagnate because they were ahead. Still are. 110 years and they have a handful of engines. Why? Because they are that good. You don't touch a winning team.
Just like Alfa.
The others had to improve otherwise there would be no competition.
My 2 cents

 

[Aggie57]

This touch screen issue was something I complained about loudly with the 1st gen iPhone, way back in 2007. My old Nokia had buttons, and snake.......despite being hooked on tech I do still miss that old 6310i.

 

[John Ireland]

Alfa stagnate because they were ahead. Still are. 110 years and they have a handful of engines. Why? Because they are that good. You don't touch a winning team.
Just like Alfa.
The others had to improve otherwise there would be no competition.
My 2 cents

Don't Bogart that joint.

 

[Michael Smith]

Porsche have been very good at market hype and option pricing. Porsche has always been very good at the marketing end of the business. Being a small manufacturer they have been able to offer their customers the illusion of producing a personalized car for you. This proves illusory if you try to buy just a base model with no options, the one priced to get you in the door but which Porsche basically won't build for you. Not without a long fight with the salesman who gives the impression of looking out for your longer term interests, when he expects you to trade for another Porsche which he intends to sell for you.

Also, Porsche has built the same car for 50 years now, and is, unaccountably, very proud of that. The Boxster/Cayman represented a real innovation (for Porsche) but was marketed as an entry level car (for Porsche). Any normal car maker with normally discerning customers would have abandoned the 911 platform decades ago. Porsche ignores the obvious fact that the Cayman is a far better car than the 911 ever was.

Finally, Porsche was going broke building the 911 but stubbornly refused to stop and sell a better car. The Boxster brought just enough volume to save the company until it could become the maker of luxury trucks it now is.

Ferrari built road cars so he could make enough money to build race cars. Porsche builds trucks, a lot of trucks, ostensibly to finance the continued production of the 911.

As I say, Porsche is good at marketing. Their cars are nothing special without the hype.

Alfa on the other hand have always built cars with real soul. I defy anyone to drive an Alfa and not fall in love with the marque. Engineering almost always takes precedence over marketing and financial viability at Alfa. Profit margins are hard to create under those conditions. Lovable cars are the objective. Since WW II Alfa has always sold a "cheap" car, albeit a very expensive cheap car. You get an awful lot of car for your money when you buy an Alfa.

Whatever you may think about the Giulia it is a car that makes sense financially because it is designed to appeal more broadly than most previous Alfa models. It does, if you look at the numbers, but it is still far too well engineered to be really profitable. To sell in 3 series numbers (now that's a boring car) requires that the Giulia be dumbed down a very long way. Let us hope that does not happen. The world is already flooded with capable and very dull cars for the main market.

 

[John Ireland]

Porsche have been very good at market hype and option pricing. Porsche has always been very good at the marketing end of the business. Being a small manufacturer they have been able to offer their customers the illusion of producing a personalized car for you. This proves illusory if you try to buy just a base model with no options, the one priced to get you in the door but which Porsche basically won't build for you. Not without a long fight with the salesman who gives the impression of looking out for your longer term interests, when he expects you to trade for another Porsche which he intends to sell for you.

Also, Porsche has built the same car for 50 years now, and is, unaccountably, very proud of that. The Boxster/Cayman represented a real innovation (for Porsche) but was marketed as an entry level car (for Porsche). Any normal car maker with normally discerning customers would have abandoned the 911 platform decades ago. Porsche ignores the obvious fact that the Cayman is a far better car than the 911 ever was.

Finally, Porsche was going broke building the 911 but stubbornly refused to stop and sell a better car. The Boxster brought just enough volume to save the company until it could become the maker of luxury trucks it now is.

Ferrari built road cars so he could make enough money to build race cars. Porsche builds trucks, a lot of trucks, ostensibly to finance the continued production of the 911.

As I say, Porsche is good at marketing. Their cars are nothing special without the hype.

Alfa on the other hand have always built cars with real soul. I defy anyone to drive an Alfa and not fall in love with the marque. Engineering almost always takes precedence over marketing and financial viability at Alfa. Profit margins are hard to create under those conditions. Lovable cars are the objective. Since WW II Alfa has always sold a "cheap" car, albeit a very expensive cheap car. You get an awful lot of car for your money when you buy an Alfa.

Whatever you may think about the Giulia it is a car that makes sense financially because it is designed to appeal more broadly than most previous Alfa models. It does, if you look at the numbers, but it is still far too well engineered to be really profitable. To sell in 3 series numbers (now that's a boring car) requires that the Giulia be dumbed down a very long way. Let us hope that does not happen. The world is already flooded with capable and very dull cars for the main market.

Enjoy the Kool-Aid.
Alfa entered the US market in the late fifties, its product was not priced for people on Champaign budgets. It was priced for enthusiasts...and the Alfa Club was born by owners who wanted to or needed to work on their own car. Alfa leadership in Italy looked down their noses at the US market and sold the distribution rights to a scumbag thief who raped the American customers by providing zero dealer support and service. Alfa survived and grew only because of the enthusiasts who owned them.

In time Alfa management decided the US was worth giving a second look, but they only did so for the money they thought they could make here...they still looked down their noses at us...and gave us little improvement in support or service. At every step the Alfa management shot themselves in the foot.

During this same time period Porsche began building their cars and company. But they controlled their distribution and dealerships and made sure the customer was treated with respect. (As did Mercedes and BMW) Porsche tried to end the 911 run when they introduced front engine water cooled models in the seventies. Their customers insisted that they keep the 911 alive, and so they listed to their customers and did. It was an engineering struggle to keep a basically bad design working, but they did so, winning more Le Mans records than any other car maker in history. (How many has Alfa won?) I've owned five 911s...starting with a '93 RS America (which was an option delete entry level model), then a '95 993 base model (my favorite), followed by a 2003 996 then a 2006 997 and then a 2000 996...all pre-owned. What was consistent was constant development of the cars by Porsche. That encouraged owners to sell their old one and buy a new one. And yes, the cost of building 911 was putting them into the poor house. So they added more models to their product range and prospered.

Alfa, a larger company, has done none of that...and as a result they are at death's door as a car maker. Yes their cars have "soul"...and soon that might be all that is left of them. Alfa had tons of opportunities to do great things. Instead they have always punted the ball. They could have fought for American market share by taking on the VW GTI with their own hot hatch. They could have modernized the Spider and beat Miata to the punch. Alfa has always had the potential to build great cars. No one has disputed that. The albatross around Alfa's neck has always been incompetent management, whether it was the Italian government or now Fiat.

I think my Giulia out performs all the Porsche's I've owned. But the fact that Alfa is doing nothing to their model line in the US does not speak well of their long term intentions. They are now basically selling five year old models. That is a recipe for disaster. Maybe someone at Alfa actually reads these pages and will get the message.

 

[Speedraser]

... What Tesla did was to place most of the driving-oriented controls on stalks and a few buttons on the steering wheel. It also has voice control, which seems far more advanced than on competitor cars, so there's usually no need to turn one's attention away from the road. If you still wanted to fiddle with the screen, it is iPad level fast, and occurs quickly. Like you, I still wish it had more direct controls, but Tesla, like Apple, likes to chart its own path, so buyers will be forced to adapt. My adult children, who grew up with computers and smart devices, seem to have no difficulty, so this must be a generational thing.

From my experience (less than yours, of course) driving a couple of Model Ss and a Model 3, too many controls remain accessible only through the touchscreen -- when you need them, you must look at the screen and not at the road. Quicker response time reduces the amount of time you're not looking at the road, but you're still not looking at the road. My teenage kids grew up with touchscreens too -- and they still have to look at the screen to use it. I've tried voice control, including in the Tesla, and I've never found it to work well -- which makes it distracting also. Buyers may be forced to adapt, but for me the touchscreen-only (almost) interface means that I absolutely won't be a buyer -- so I won't be forced to adapt. Buttons and knobs work very well, and allows one to keep eyes on the road. To each his own, of course.

 

[Del]

The Chevy SS we bought has pretty much everything the Giulia has in the form of control electronics and infotainment features, including voice command for some things, but while it has a smallish screen in the middle of the dash (not even sure it has touch control capabilities, maybe for the GPS), the controls for everything are push buttons or knobs, which we both appreciate, along with the heads up display of course.

Lol, at least if the engine quits, the car doesn't totally lock itself up, making it immobile as described in a different posting.

While I suppose we could manage to buy a Tesla, we would not, pretty much because of the huge touchscreens. Just not our bag, regardless of the attractiveness of much of the cars otherwise.