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Thoughts on a long wheelbase 105/115?

7.6K views 34 replies 19 participants last post by  Del  
#1 ·
So I found myself browsing photos of this beautiful car, along other classics. I started wondering about what a contemporary, higher-end true grand tourer would look like. Because the Bertone styling is so gorgeous, I wouldn't really want to mess with that, just make it longer to accept a straight six or v12 under the hood. And so, I went and grabbed an image of the car from the side and worked my quite terrible GIMP skills upon it. (attached are both the original image and the lengthened version) I decided to stretch it just behind the front wheel arch and just in front of the windshield cowl, because in order to modify an existing car cutting there would make shaping the new metal easiest. My theory is that with a rust repair panel from alfaholics, it would be possible to fill the gap with little actual shaping. With some body filler to smooth the body lines, all that needs doing is extending the hood.

If I were to actually do this, I'd pick up a shell that's nearly gone to rust anyways, I'd feel bad about cutting up a perfectly good body otherwise. Considering I want to space-frame the front and build a new trans tunnel and floor (for an S2000 transmission, if I'm using a new engine might as well get the best trans I can) I don't mind dealing with a bit of rust - especially because to do this properly I need to go down to bare metal anyways. Regardless, I would weld levels onto both sides of the cut so to make aligning it afterwards much easier.

The biggest question I have, really, is do any of your think this looks good? And, if the length looks good, do the front wheel arches now look a tad too far forward? Should they move an inch backwards? If so, that complicates the whole project massively and I'd likely end up with a fiberglass or carbon front clip instead of just adding sheet metal.

So, thoughts? Other than this being blasphemous, though. Trust me, I know that already.
 

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#8 ·
What I needed to do is get my hands on a decent 3d model and stretch it appropriately, so that I can better visualize the extra length.

Although trust me, a space-frame is definitely the plan for this. The question is would I just replace the entire front end or keep the sheet metal skin.

And it should be said, I'm not sure about this project at all. I'll trying to figure out if I want to do it at all
 
#7 ·
The Sprint GT/GTV design wouldn't look properly balanced, with that abnormally long hood. The overall design of the 2600 does do a better job of allowing the slightly longer hood.
I feel like the 2600 isn't as svelt as a long 105 could be. The rear of the greenhouse seems to extend too far back in order to accommodate the extra legroom in the rear (even in the Sprint)
 
#6 ·
The Sprint GT/GTV design wouldn't look properly balanced, with that abnormally long hood. The overall design of the 2600 does do a better job of allowing the slightly longer hood.
 
#10 ·
#12 ·
You cannot improve on perfection .............I think I'll just say that again YOU CANNOT IMPROVE ON PERFECTION..............
 

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#14 · (Edited)
In my many years as a designer I can strongly recommend a benchmarking phase to any undertaking.

You are designing a skyscraper? Look at ten and see what you like, what you are aiming for. Symmetrical, asymmetrical, stepped back, shaft like, horizontally banded, vertically banded, monolithic etc etc. Pick a beautiful coupe that has been "stretched" that you have seen in person and use it as your go-by. If you come up with approximately zero examples you have two choices:
1. cancel project.
2. understand that your 1000000 hour project will be, and look like, a prototype when you are done. if that's what you want, have at.

Another recommendation is to question the presumptions. Is the goal really to "do a big project" - which I can respect. I like a good project. Or is the goal to make a 'high end gt' sort of like a cruising version of Alfaholics GTAr? If the former, does it absolutely need a straight six (why not V?) or twelve (why not 8?) cylinder motor? If modern high end GTs are your benchmark, cylinder count is going down across the board and packaging is getting more efficient. If the big motor is determined to be a must, are you positive there aren't lots of options that will fit in the stock bay? I'd sooner do surgery to say, the cross member or firewall than I would stretch the exterior envelope of the car.

I spend a decent amount of time idly pondering engine swaps to my E30. I was never attracted by the heavier E36 M3 motors that are so popular but recently a lot of capable people have spent time making late model all alum/magnesium straight sixes swappable with no cutting. To me this is a cool thing - keep the low displacement, torquey, sweet sounding straight six but use the latest and greatest from the same family, adding not just power but lightness and efficiency. With no cutting. That is cool. Same basic idea as the Alfaholics GTAr in fact. Which I presume you have seen? https://www.alfaholics.com/gta-r/
 
#17 ·
Berlinista

its been done already

There is the Leopard, which is a GTV on a 116 floorpan, which , side by side by another gtv , is a bit longer in the nose.
Pics available on this board.
Then there is the Sprint 2600 and 2000, who where also basically lwb Bertone Coupes, albeit produced earlier. Only after these did Giugiaro create the well known coupe we all love.
 
#18 ·
its been done already

There is the Leopard, which is a GTV on a 116 floorpan, which , side by side by another gtv , is a bit longer in the nose.
Pics available on this board.
Then there is the Sprint 2600 and 2000, who where also basically lwb Bertone Coupes, albeit produced earlier. Only after these did Giugiaro create the well known coupe we all love.
Odd decision, I would have shortened the 116 driveshaft and floor pan. Much easier, surely?
Pete
 
#19 ·
“Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them were finished. And on the seventh day, God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made” (Genesis 2:1-3).
Get the point...
 
#20 ·
Long wheelbase 105/115

Don't mess with a GTV till you've driven one, they are exhilarating!

If you want a really hot GTV buy an already professionally built one from Alcoholics.com/GTA-R/ for $250k.

If you want an "extended" GTV like GTV-074 or Alfa69GTV1750 showed us but with a longer wheelbase and nose, look at the 1971-73 Volvo P1800 ES.
It will never handle like a GTV but you can drop a much larger engine in it.

Harmon
 
#22 ·
You said

"...a straight six or v12 under the hood...."

What are you inline 6 and V12 engine candidates? For the V12 it's slim pickins, there that SOHC BMW V12 from the BMW 850. There's that Ford Duratec based V12 from Aston Martin, that's a very nice engine. As far as sixes go there's lots from Japan & Germany. I was never a fan of inline sixes.

You know the Alfa V6 even in 24V form slips in pretty easily to the GTV chassis.

Bye
 
#24 ·
If you pull up my old thread
the leopard loves it will answer many of your questions. It's a great idea and my thread will give a very clever way to get it done. BTW. THAT CAR WAS AWESOME AS FAR AS HANDLING.
Unfortunately I never was able to get it up to the standards I wanted and then we all fell on hard times. But maybe you can get some ideas from what I created and went through. Good luck. It's all doable just takes time.
T Gold
 
#27 ·
Yes, good advice. The very attractive Jag XJ coupe wasn't made by making a small car bigger (cf the slightly ungainly E Type 2+2) but keeping the basic bodyshell, size and chassis of a SWB S1 XJ and just making it a coupe. Personally the SWB S1 looks just as good to my eyes (Declaration of interest: I own one)

Bertone sort of did this with the 2600 which has a louche elegance of its own, on a bigger scale that Giulia GT so may have been more suitable and an uprated restomod version could be interesting