Can everybody show us the photos that you have.
Thanks.
Any idea about his chassis number ?
Thanks.
Any idea about his chassis number ?
Photos TZ 1 and TZ
1 reading
Olczyk
161 - 180 of 181 Posts
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6 Posts
Images?
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The action shots aren't quite up to standard, but should provide some satisfaction. Enjoy!
My first post here, thought maybe some images of the #102 car?
The action shots aren't quite up to standard, but should provide some satisfaction. Enjoy!
Hi Richard, Frank, others
I am somewhat confused, that is not surprising given the wonderful Tuscan steak lunch just enjoyed, but what am I missing?
"There are no Autodelta parts for the TZ" I think Richard`s quote...but isn`t a TZ wholly an Autodelta creation? Yeah, Alfa/others supplied bits `n` pieces, somewhat big pieces, but the car was manufactured by Autodelta, so it`s all an Autodelta....
Or have I missed the plot, back to the Brunello....
Richard
I am somewhat confused, that is not surprising given the wonderful Tuscan steak lunch just enjoyed, but what am I missing?
"There are no Autodelta parts for the TZ" I think Richard`s quote...but isn`t a TZ wholly an Autodelta creation? Yeah, Alfa/others supplied bits `n` pieces, somewhat big pieces, but the car was manufactured by Autodelta, so it`s all an Autodelta....
Or have I missed the plot, back to the Brunello....
Richard
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417 Posts
I am so not the authority on this, but that never stops me. I'll keep it brief.
I'm pretty sure the TZs were manufactured by Zagato. Autodelta's role would have been to prep/tune/develop the engine + suspension of cars that were campaigned by the factory. They also may(?) have offered similar services to private owners willing to pay - not sure.
The TZs predated the GTAs by only one year, and the GTAs appear to have been given the priority when it came to racing - perhaps their similarity to the street GT made these efforts more accessible to the marketing dept., or they were perceived to have more potential in their class.
With the appearance (distraction?) of the fiberglass TZ-II in '65, things seemed to be getting spread thin.
Since the TZ's front suspension, engine, drivetrain was 105-based, continuing/successful development on the GTAs could be back-filled, hence adjustable camber/castor links; addl. gear-ratio, pinion/ring options, etc., for the TZ.
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1,482 Posts
You have to have the timeline straight.
In, probably 1959 , Alfa Romeo regain the cooperation with Zagato. With the agreement of Zagato producing the Alfa Romeo Sprint Zagato.
In the same agreement, there was probably, an agreement of indictment, to develop a racing car suitable for the upcoming Giulia range.
Zagato started to develop the design. Pictures of prototypes is fluting on the web.
The tube chassis and body was designed and dimensioned in house by Alfa Romeo. Later produced to the spec by Zagato.
Alfa entered into an agreement with the owner of a company called Delta Auto, witch was positioned in Undine, north of Venice.
He establish a new company called Auto-Delta. The company should assembly the new Alfa Romeo TZ cars and tune then to race specification.
Ludovico Chizzola was the owner of delta Auto and founder of Auto-Delta. He had peevishly been employed by Ferrari, where he worked wit Carlo Chiti.
He convinced Carlo Chitti to be a part of Auto-Delta. Carlo Chitti, drove op to Udini, for the weekend to tune that cars that should be delivered the coming week. Carlo Chitty was employed by the company ATS. So the Auto-Delta, was at the start a part time job.
Later was the Auto-Delta acquired by Alfa Romeo. Who mowed the company to Milan, and employed Carlo Chitti as Manager, for the new company AutoDelta SPA.It was in 1963.50 years ago.
that GTA was first launched in 1965
Its is the short version , just from my head.
In, probably 1959 , Alfa Romeo regain the cooperation with Zagato. With the agreement of Zagato producing the Alfa Romeo Sprint Zagato.
In the same agreement, there was probably, an agreement of indictment, to develop a racing car suitable for the upcoming Giulia range.
Zagato started to develop the design. Pictures of prototypes is fluting on the web.
The tube chassis and body was designed and dimensioned in house by Alfa Romeo. Later produced to the spec by Zagato.
Alfa entered into an agreement with the owner of a company called Delta Auto, witch was positioned in Undine, north of Venice.
He establish a new company called Auto-Delta. The company should assembly the new Alfa Romeo TZ cars and tune then to race specification.
Ludovico Chizzola was the owner of delta Auto and founder of Auto-Delta. He had peevishly been employed by Ferrari, where he worked wit Carlo Chiti.
He convinced Carlo Chitti to be a part of Auto-Delta. Carlo Chitti, drove op to Udini, for the weekend to tune that cars that should be delivered the coming week. Carlo Chitty was employed by the company ATS. So the Auto-Delta, was at the start a part time job.
Later was the Auto-Delta acquired by Alfa Romeo. Who mowed the company to Milan, and employed Carlo Chitti as Manager, for the new company AutoDelta SPA.It was in 1963.50 years ago.
that GTA was first launched in 1965
Its is the short version , just from my head.
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594 Posts
This isn't a photo, but I thought you might enjoy it anyhow. It is a watercolor I did for the Posters we sold at the 2009 Convention in Portland.
Bill Gillham
Jefferson Oregon
Bill Gillham
Jefferson Oregon
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417 Posts
Scanned two oldies from the album
First is accelerating out of Turn 11, toward Turn 1 @ Sears Point in '78 or '79. Fairly certain of the years because I recall when I dated the girl in the passenger seat (with Marnix driving). Even with the reduced resolution of uploading, you can just barely make out her smile.
Second is in the paddock at Sears Point, somewhere between '76 - '79. If I had to, I'd guess '77.
First is accelerating out of Turn 11, toward Turn 1 @ Sears Point in '78 or '79. Fairly certain of the years because I recall when I dated the girl in the passenger seat (with Marnix driving). Even with the reduced resolution of uploading, you can just barely make out her smile.
Second is in the paddock at Sears Point, somewhere between '76 - '79. If I had to, I'd guess '77.
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Mr. Olczyk and the damage he has done
Marnix and I sat down a few days ago to discuss specifically what we have learned in recent times about various Alfa Romeo GTZ cars. We've done this a couple of times in the past and we will meet again soon to do more of the same. With an eye towards our future conversations, I have been looking again through my file of information which is composed of old paper, more recent paper, many photographs and a whole lot of notes from various sources. I hope I do not regret one day the fact that I have trashed original notes at various times after transcribing the information into the computer. Some context comes sometimes from the nature of the notes themselves.
I love Marnix's car and I love his enthusiasm for all of them. I share a good portion of similar enthusiasms. I've always enjoyed the TZ as a car and the many wonderful mysteries that surround many of them. Mysteries that can enhance interest rather than detract from interest.
As I look through my files now, however, I find myself saddened by the reality that I can never undo the historical damages done by Mr. Olczyk in his zeal to mess with the rest of us who truly care about this stuff. Its not that I believe he does not care at all, but it is clear that he cares far more about his personal agendas, some of which are transparent and some of which are perhaps known only to him.
It is unfortunate that every TZ studied now has to be looked at with a great deal of skepticism about the veracity of what he has claimed, whether his impression is positive or negative. Has he reported what he truly knows or has he reported what will serve his agenda of the moment? He has criticized me for passing on what I've been told by others who seemed to be trustworthy and who seemed to believe what they were told or had seen. He knows full well that a study has to begin somewhere and yet he mocks those who make such studies and share preliminary data collections as a study aid. I will not point out all the instances where his data has also come from others, or the number of times he has asked others for some information.
Mr. Olczyk has made pedantic statements about cars he's never seen without doing enough homework to understand why certain anomalies are not only possible, but appear also on cars where there is no controversy whatsoever about the origins. Even if the only controversies about some cars were created by him! Some years ago, he admitted to me that he could not believe in the historical origins of 750094 because it has no homologation number stamped near the chassis number. Some other similar cars also lack this feature. It was never legally necessary that a car be stamped in that manner and some were not. These cars were not all made on the same day by a machine that did the same work all day!
As I take time now away from other studies and look through my files in an attempt to make sense of lingering mysteries about the TZ data gathered to date, I am continually reminded that my mother would not enjoy my vernacular when I continually feel "P.O.'ed" that I must deal with the multiple distractions interjected by Mr. P.O. into the discussions of many of these cars. I can admit that he has assembled some nice picture books, but he has certainly ruined the enjoyment I get when I study some of these cars. I would guess that I am not alone?
Marnix and I sat down a few days ago to discuss specifically what we have learned in recent times about various Alfa Romeo GTZ cars. We've done this a couple of times in the past and we will meet again soon to do more of the same. With an eye towards our future conversations, I have been looking again through my file of information which is composed of old paper, more recent paper, many photographs and a whole lot of notes from various sources. I hope I do not regret one day the fact that I have trashed original notes at various times after transcribing the information into the computer. Some context comes sometimes from the nature of the notes themselves.
I love Marnix's car and I love his enthusiasm for all of them. I share a good portion of similar enthusiasms. I've always enjoyed the TZ as a car and the many wonderful mysteries that surround many of them. Mysteries that can enhance interest rather than detract from interest.
As I look through my files now, however, I find myself saddened by the reality that I can never undo the historical damages done by Mr. Olczyk in his zeal to mess with the rest of us who truly care about this stuff. Its not that I believe he does not care at all, but it is clear that he cares far more about his personal agendas, some of which are transparent and some of which are perhaps known only to him.
It is unfortunate that every TZ studied now has to be looked at with a great deal of skepticism about the veracity of what he has claimed, whether his impression is positive or negative. Has he reported what he truly knows or has he reported what will serve his agenda of the moment? He has criticized me for passing on what I've been told by others who seemed to be trustworthy and who seemed to believe what they were told or had seen. He knows full well that a study has to begin somewhere and yet he mocks those who make such studies and share preliminary data collections as a study aid. I will not point out all the instances where his data has also come from others, or the number of times he has asked others for some information.
Mr. Olczyk has made pedantic statements about cars he's never seen without doing enough homework to understand why certain anomalies are not only possible, but appear also on cars where there is no controversy whatsoever about the origins. Even if the only controversies about some cars were created by him! Some years ago, he admitted to me that he could not believe in the historical origins of 750094 because it has no homologation number stamped near the chassis number. Some other similar cars also lack this feature. It was never legally necessary that a car be stamped in that manner and some were not. These cars were not all made on the same day by a machine that did the same work all day!
As I take time now away from other studies and look through my files in an attempt to make sense of lingering mysteries about the TZ data gathered to date, I am continually reminded that my mother would not enjoy my vernacular when I continually feel "P.O.'ed" that I must deal with the multiple distractions interjected by Mr. P.O. into the discussions of many of these cars. I can admit that he has assembled some nice picture books, but he has certainly ruined the enjoyment I get when I study some of these cars. I would guess that I am not alone?
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2,033 Posts
750060
Marnix's car in use.
Somewhere, somebody probably has a photo of the car with me driving it in a catch-all race at Sears Point with CSRG. I don't remember what year. Maybe around 1983? Perhaps a bit later. Maybe just before he was set to do a rebuild anyway? Marnix told me beforehand to use 4500rpm as a red-line and I did so. After a couple of laps, he came out to the pit-wall and indicated I could use more revs. I had no idea how many I should use so I think I limited it to under 6000 while knowing full well it was good for more. I'd heard him in action many times. What a grin! Thanks Marnix!
Marnix's car in use.
Somewhere, somebody probably has a photo of the car with me driving it in a catch-all race at Sears Point with CSRG. I don't remember what year. Maybe around 1983? Perhaps a bit later. Maybe just before he was set to do a rebuild anyway? Marnix told me beforehand to use 4500rpm as a red-line and I did so. After a couple of laps, he came out to the pit-wall and indicated I could use more revs. I had no idea how many I should use so I think I limited it to under 6000 while knowing full well it was good for more. I'd heard him in action many times. What a grin! Thanks Marnix!
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845 Posts
TZ 094 and others
John
Thanks for your continued interest in keeping the history of these cars in order.
Glad that you and Marnix continue to discuss and compare notes over the TZ cars.
While I no longer own 094, I'm thankful that the record has been cleared up.
We spent years trying to free it from the false stories, though they still exist in print, unfortunately.
I'm truly happy that it's now in the hands of someone who believes in it's authenticity.
Thanks again,
Keith
John
Thanks for your continued interest in keeping the history of these cars in order.
Glad that you and Marnix continue to discuss and compare notes over the TZ cars.
While I no longer own 094, I'm thankful that the record has been cleared up.
We spent years trying to free it from the false stories, though they still exist in print, unfortunately.
I'm truly happy that it's now in the hands of someone who believes in it's authenticity.
Thanks again,
Keith
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3 Posts
I'm doing research on a 1964 TZ1 #750061 ex. Nobokov.
I have quite a bit of info already but you never know what may turn up if you ask.
I've read the 12 pages and understand there are some bruises.
All I can do is assure you I'm innocently asking for info, not re-writing history.
As far as the original nose, a fellow from Australia wrote the owner it was removed and replaced when it arrived there.
I do not know where it went.
A picture of it was sent and is below, if it works.
So far, drag and drop isn't catching the photos.
The other pictures were taken by myself last winter.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/108438789542838750555/posts/FJzfnQP3xPL?pid=6158549689916199218&oid=108438789542838750555
I have quite a bit of info already but you never know what may turn up if you ask.
I've read the 12 pages and understand there are some bruises.
All I can do is assure you I'm innocently asking for info, not re-writing history.
As far as the original nose, a fellow from Australia wrote the owner it was removed and replaced when it arrived there.
I do not know where it went.
A picture of it was sent and is below, if it works.
So far, drag and drop isn't catching the photos.
The other pictures were taken by myself last winter.
https://plus.google.com/u/0/108438789542838750555/posts/FJzfnQP3xPL?pid=6158549689916199218&oid=108438789542838750555
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10,567 Posts
FYI, here are a couple of pictures (possibly b/w Polaroids) of #750105 I found in Adrian Ratcliff's estate.
One can see the TO 744828 license plate under the BC license plate WJJ405 and also the "Stradale" rear bumper and side spears he had removed.
EDIT: Fritz Duernberger confirmed on the phone today (without seeing the pictures) that:
(a) this was his license plate, and
(b) Adrian removed the fender flares on the car in about mid-1974 -- which is probably where these pictures stem from.
![1622439]( "1622439")
![1622440]( "1622440")
![1622441]( "1622441")
![1622442]( "1622442")
One can see the TO 744828 license plate under the BC license plate WJJ405 and also the "Stradale" rear bumper and side spears he had removed.
EDIT: Fritz Duernberger confirmed on the phone today (without seeing the pictures) that:
(a) this was his license plate, and
(b) Adrian removed the fender flares on the car in about mid-1974 -- which is probably where these pictures stem from.
161 - 180 of 181 Posts
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