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Hi vince

A little OT but is that, earlier foto, definitely a Fleron? No verification to hand and it looks prettier than `Flerons` I remember!

Richard
Hi Richard,
My point is, it is a competition type 33, of the "Fleron" style if you like, NOT remotely a Stradale. I agree, it looks more striking than regular Fleron appearance. As already pointed out in an earlier thread, it does look like a composite of TZ2 and Fleron. Probably most likely one of the very early muletto test cars I would think. Chances are, they used a modified TZ2 front bodywork for initial testing before making a more bespoke 33 version.
Vince.
 

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33 engine

The paternity of 33 2 liters engine:
“…However, what he really wanted was a radical change, and his lightweight alloy V8 was secret weapon to prove. With two chain driven overhead camshafts per cylinder bank, two/four ignition coils, Lucas fuel injection, 16 spark plugs (two per cylinder, though the early version was equipped with single plug, “Periscopica” 001, 002, and 003), compression 11:1, and capacity of just under two liters (1995cc), engine easily developed 270 bhp in race trim. The engine coupled to a six-speed direct Colotti gearbox. Recently someone stated that the project of that engine was of Busso, but this is not true. The fact is that Busso and Satta have proposed V12 as definite engine, and only the necessity to reduce the bulk and the weight of power unit, and eventual use in future production of that motor, conducted to the V8 solution. However, the project of the engine was not quite new. Chiti just reviewed existing plans of his 1500 engine, based on experience gained at Ferrari. He has designed similar engine few years before for ATS F1, and it was 90°, V8, single plug, with 45° inclined OHC valves, aluminum block with wet liners, dry sump flat alloy crank, with five main bearings. Increasing it to 2 liter and adding twin spark ignition and fuel injection, was not a problem, and the truth is that initially many used parts were of ATS provenience. The final result was nice and clean construction and to assure enough air, on the racing car, a huge pipe was mounted over the engine bay…”
“The Fléron chassis”
“Il motore è stato “revisionato” nel corso del 1966. Il V8 non nacque in casa Alfa, ma fu portato "in dote” dall'ingegner Carlo Chiti dopo la sua avventura all'ATS…”
“Alfa Romeo 33/2 Stradale”
“El motor, un desarrollo de Carlo Chiti heredado de su fallido intento en ATS, era un V8 a 90° de aluminio con doble arbol de levas en cabeza de 1995 cc, culata de doble encendido e inyeccion de combustible mecanica SPICA, que entrega entre 230 y 243 CV a 8800 rpm, con un par de 200 Nm a 7000 rpm., aunque hay quien le ha hecho pasar la barrera de los 250 CV y 9000 rpm.”
“T33 Stradale”
Ignition coils and number of plugs:
On 33 engine, two or four coils were used indistinctly. (Four for major reliability) and the number of plugs was 8 on early, “Periscopica” models (two coils) as clearly visible on the photo of 750.33.003 (now in Nastase collection, USA). All “Stradale” cars were equipped with 16 plugs (twin spark), some with two, and some with four ignition coils, (irrespective of Marelli or Bosh distribution), and SPICA injection.
In the late ’50, V8 engines were tested in Servizio Esperienze (elaboration of previously existing projects made by Busso), but that was another engine not related to 33 project, and abandoned before 105.33
Carrozzeria Marazzi held all the documents pertinent to 33 Stradale (the chassis were delivered to Marazzi completed with drivetrain) and you can ask for details, though I do not know if their database is open to public. (Adress to Mario or Serafino Marazzi at [email protected])
 

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Interesting debate on who made the first series of Tipo 33 engine and its up to history researchers to find out for sure. Books some times tell diffent stories. In the Carlo Chiti Grand Prix book its only mentioned that he constructed a new car and V8 engine. So what he took with him of ideas for the new V8 engine maybe was only in his mind. Also its mentioned elswhere that the ATS V8 engine was a copy of the Ferrari V6 F1 engine, with regards of technical details. So copying over several generations of engines?

ATS being a very obscure brand from Italy in the sixties, and this site being an Alfa site, therefore knowledge of ATS here probably is close to zero. In the Chiti Grand Prix book there is only photo of the road 2,5L engine which is a single cam V8. So getting anything on the F1 1,5L twin cam V8 was not quite easy. However there is some material on this engine in a book. Just to get an idea to the discussion here and even get a photo of it. On the retrieved photos it can be seen that the 1963 version was quite different from the Tipo33 engine, however the 1964 ATS engine looks more like the Alfa. This actually means nothing with regards of the Alfa ancestry, but maybe there is a chance? How close are these constructions?

The retrieved texts and photos from 1,5L F1 engines of the sixties: p. 288-289

G.

https://books.google.no/books?id=pf-bn_ihlhYC&pg=RA1-PA87&lpg=RA1-PA87&dq=Auto+Tourismo+de+Sport,+T100+V8+F1+engine&source=bl&ots=21VydPunTE&sig=JKWmiQNQAjrq2Jh0lB2wBgTXekw&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIt7CtnLj1yAIVxalyCh1YgQge#v=onepage&q=Auto Tourismo de Sport, T100 V8 F1 engine&f=false
 

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This reminded me of an old thread to which I contributed, which revealed a photo of a Colotti-Francis transaxle. Wonder what happened to it ....
 

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Interesting debate on who made the first series of Tipo 33 engine and its up to history researchers to find out for sure. Books some times tell diffent stories. In the Carlo Chiti Grand Prix book its only mentioned that he constructed a new car and V8 engine. So what he took with him of ideas for the new V8 engine maybe was only in his mind. Also its mentioned elswhere that the ATS V8 engine was a copy of the Ferrari V6 F1 engine, with regards of technical details. So copying over several generations of engines?

ATS being a very obscure brand from Italy in the sixties, and this site being an Alfa site, therefore knowledge of ATS here probably is close to zero. In the Chiti Grand Prix book there is only photo of the road 2,5L engine which is a single cam V8. So getting anything on the F1 1,5L twin cam V8 was not quite easy. However there is some material on this engine in a book. Just to get an idea to the discussion here and even get a photo of it. On the retrieved photos it can be seen that the 1963 version was quite different from the Tipo33 engine, however the 1964 ATS engine looks more like the Alfa. This actually means nothing with regards of the Alfa ancestry, but maybe there is a chance? How close are these constructions?

The retrieved texts and photos from 1,5L F1 engines of the sixties: p. 288-289

G.

https://books.google.no/books?id=pf-bn_ihlhYC&pg=RA1-PA87&lpg=RA1-PA87&dq=Auto+Tourismo+de+Sport,+T100+V8+F1+engine&source=bl&ots=21VydPunTE&sig=JKWmiQNQAjrq2Jh0lB2wBgTXekw&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAGoVChMIt7CtnLj1yAIVxalyCh1YgQge#v=onepage&q=Auto Tourismo de Sport, T100 V8 F1 engine&f=false
If you are interested in ATS, than Michael John Lazzari book, “ATS. La scuderia bolognese che sfidò Ferrari”, (Maglio Editore, 2012) is good starting point (I do not know if there is English edition too). ATS 2,5 liter engine has nothing to do with 33 project and it was not Formula 1 engine. It was produced for ATS GT 2,5 and it is another story, not for this forum. Ferrari V6 engine used in F1 was 120° and different architecture, and so, obviously not the inspiration for 90° V8. Chiti at Ferrari has worked on 158 F1 engine project in 1960 (later developed by Forghieri) used in 1964 F1 season. It was 1500 cc,V8, 90°, 2 OHC two valves for bank, 5 bearings, dry sump, ecc, very similar to his 1500 cc,T100 ATS F1 engine built in 1962, and both those motors are close relatives to 33 engine. I do not understand continuous claiming of Giuseppe Busso’s authorship of 33 motor (chassis and the majority of general solutions were his work) as Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography) V8 for 33 as his project. Maurizio Tabucchi author of important books about Alfa Romeo (close friend of Chiti) is explicit about that: “…Luraghi’s decision was immediate; Chiti would complete 33 project, and Chiti would conceive the new engine for it, an 2 liter V8 unit…”
“…La decisione di Luraghi fu immediata: la 33 l'avrebbe terminata Chiti e avrebbe progettato anche il motore, un 8 cilindri da due litri…“ (Maurizio Tabucchi, “AUTODELTA”,1967, GLI ESORDI DELLA 33, page 80) Another controversy is about produced Stradale cars.
Here are numbers:
750.33.01 (four lights, prototypo, body probably in aluminum) Autodelta factory
750.33.101 (two lights, first production car, body in Peraluman H33) Carrozzeria Marazzi
750.33.102 same as above
750.33.103 same as above
750.33.104 same as above
750.33.105 same as above
750.33.106 same as above
750.33.107 magnesium chassis, fiberglass body, 270 bhp engine, used for racing
750.33.108 Concept car (Pininfarina Roadster, rebodied in Cuneo)
750.33.109 Concept car (Bertone Carabo)
750.33.110 ?
750.33.111 same as first production car
750.33.112 same as above
750.33.113 same as above, renumbered in 750.33.133
750.33.114 2,5 liter engine, racing trim (Giro d’Italia)
750.33.115 Concept car (Pininfarina 33/2 SC)
750.33.116 Concept car (Giugiaro Iguana)
750.33.117 Concept car (Bertone Navajo)
750.33.118 ?
To replace sold prototype (750.33.01) sold in Japan, Autodelta build on magnesium chassis from dismantled racing car (number 750.33.012) four light version renumbered in 105.33.12
Though I did accurate inquiry (as possible), I cannot guarantee absolute correctness of chassis number data.
 

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ARGTAReg : If you have photos of the 1964 ATS 1,5L V8 engine from an overhaul or technical drawing, it would be interesting to compare with the insides of the Tipo 33 engine. We know little about the ATS engine, but something about the Tipo 33 engine here. So more info on the ATS engine is what we need!

G.
 

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I I do not understand continuous claiming of Giuseppe Busso’s authorship of 33 motor (chassis and the majority of general solutions were his work) as Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography) V8 for 33 as his project. Maurizio Tabucchi author of important books about Alfa Romeo (close friend of Chiti) is explicit about that: “…Luraghi’s decision was immediate; Chiti would complete 33 project, and Chiti would conceive the new engine for it, an 2 liter V8 unit…”
ARGTAReg,

I must say this discussion would look much more pleasant to me if you could refrain from pontificating against other knowledgeable people (and you did so at your own expense with Martin in the discussion over GTA/SAs) based on your admiration for the late Tabucchi.

Not only was Tabucchi not so much recognized for the accuracy of his research (see 1990s La Manovella about his 2-volumes "Alfa Romeo di produzione and his invention of a "forgotten" Alfa which was, in the end, an old Darracq design updated), but you seem quite selective in your reading.

I must correct you about "Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography)".

Busso, Nel cuore dell'Alfa, p. 117:
"Noi comunque, nel 1964, avevamo dato inizio allo studio del motore posteriore"

translates into:
"We [intended as Satta, Busso and his collaborators] had anyway started in 1964 the study of the rear engine"
And, if it's not specific enough:
Busso, Nel cuore dell'Alfa, p. 119:
"In principio del 1966, la 33 era stata consegnata all'Autodelta e con essa anche i pezzi staccati del motore 8 cilindri, progettato e costruito in casa da noi. Il nuovo motore comincio' a girare al banco in Autodelta il 25 febbraio e, in vettura, a Balocco, il 28 maggio."

That is:
"At the beginning of 1966, the 33 was handled out to Autodelta, and with it also the parts for the 8 cylinders engine, home designed and built by us. The new engine was first bench tested at Autodelta on February 25th, and in the car, at Balocco, on May 28th."
While Collins' and McDonough's book on 33s is at least as much packed with errors as Tabucchi's, they remark on page 18:
"At he press conference, the designers were announced as Satta and Busso. In neglecting to include Chiti in this announcement, despite all of his work, the car's origins were indicated more clearly"
I reckon that further in the book, they make confusing statements about the engine's origin, and BTW report having seen "castings for a 2-litre V8 produced during the 1950s, again for a stillborn passenger/GT car".

I have myself researched the Arese archives for an history of the Alfa factory in the 40s and 50s, and didn't came across any plan for such a car. That doesn't rule out that the castings do exist, but I'm in doubt which project they can have been related to.
 

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All complicated by the fact Alfa and Autodelta were in effect state owned companies, Any work had to be somehow justified. Chiti had to go to Rome and explain what the money was being spent on.. Would cost cutting have played a factor in engine development and the use of as much tried and true components in any new designs ? If it was Ferrari it would be a lot clearer...

There is a history write up by an Autodelta employee that was unfinished and still being added to a while back..I think it was being put up on a facebook page (Italian) I get the picture personal views of designers pays a good part in this history it seems..
 

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Adding some more info from the Luigi Fusi, All cars from 1910!

The 33/2 Litres Sports prototypes car:

Work on the type 105.33, which was intended to compete in Sports Prototypes category races started in September 1964.
The first car was ready by the end of 1965 with a provisional TZ2 engine. Built by the experimental department at Portello it was subsequently sent to Autodelta where further units were made in various tuning stages and tested by the experimental departments of the company.

In the general layout of this model, with its new V8 engine at 90 degrees mounted at the rear, which forms an integral unit with the gearbox and independent rear axles, of particular interest is the chassi based on aeronautic design. etc.

Manager of the Alfa Romeo Designs and Experiments Department, was at that time Dr. Ing. Orazio Satta Puliga, and indeed on the lists of his Projects in 1967 the 33/2 Litri model Sport Prototypes class is listed.. page 827.

I think this is very consistent with what has been said here before that Alfa themselves were the starters of the Tipo 33 Project, and then handed the car over to Autodelta for further development!

G.
 

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ARGTAReg : If you have photos of the 1964 ATS 1,5L V8 engine from an overhaul or technical drawing, it would be interesting to compare with the insides of the Tipo 33 engine. We know little about the ATS engine, but something about the Tipo 33 engine here. So more info on the ATS engine is what we need!

G.
Hi Gabor,
I have numerous photos of ATS T100, but none of them is particulary good for confronting. However, here they are and (much better for the purpose) Ferrari 156 (mainly Chiti’s project) and Ferrari 158 (started by Chiti and then finished by Forghieri) that is 1,5 liter V8. As you can see, 156 engine is V120°, nothing like V90° of T33, while 158 engine is V90°, 8cyl. and almost identical architecture as T33. Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities. It is clear that those engines are close relatives, beside the fact that Chiti was among the most brilliant racing engine designer ever, and those motors (except ATS) confirms that.
 

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ARGTAReg,

I must say this discussion would look much more pleasant to me if you could refrain from pontificating against other knowledgeable people (and you did so at your own expense with Martin in the discussion over GTA/SAs) based on your admiration for the late Tabucchi.

Not only was Tabucchi not so much recognized for the accuracy of his research (see 1990s La Manovella about his 2-volumes "Alfa Romeo di produzione and his invention of a "forgotten" Alfa which was, in the end, an old Darracq design updated), but you seem quite selective in your reading.

I must correct you about "Busso himself has never mentioned (not even in autobiography)".



And, if it's not specific enough:


While Collins' and McDonough's book on 33s is at least as much packed with errors as Tabucchi's, they remark on page 18:


I reckon that further in the book, they make confusing statements about the engine's origin, and BTW report having seen "castings for a 2-litre V8 produced during the 1950s, again for a stillborn passenger/GT car".

I have myself researched the Arese archives for an history of the Alfa factory in the 40s and 50s, and didn't came across any plan for such a car. That doesn't rule out that the castings do exist, but I'm in doubt which project they can have been related to.
I am sorry if my comments sounds like papal edicts to you. It is due to my modest English, not my intention. However, I have to admit that our points of view (and sources) are profoundly different.
 

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Hi Gabor,
Whats more important is interior design. ATS, Ferrari 158 and T33 are all 90°, with similar bore-stroke geometry, have all twin OHC driven by chain, same direct valve opening, 45° inclined valves, flat crank with 5 main bearings for the counterweighted shaft, dry sump … and so on in many similarities.
Interesting, but as far as I know very little of the internals of th ATS 100 engine, I can say very little about the similarities except they both are twin cam V8s.

The tipo 33.2 engine I would rather say has a gear drive of the cams as only the first leg of the cam drive system is with chain, the rest is with gears up to the cams. This is completely different from the Montreal cam drive which is with chains all the way.
Can you confirm that the ATS engine has the same gear drive arrangement as the Tipo 33.2 ? Actually I have only seen this arrangement on the Alfa Tipo 33.2, but have there been others?

G.
 

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It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
Pete
 

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It is only logical that the same designer would use the "better" ideas from his previous engines in his latest design.

That though does NOT mean that the T33 engine is a derivation of say the 158 Ferrari engine, just that they had the same designer.

I think you guys are barking up the wrong tree with trying to prove that the T33 is a derivation of a previous engine. IMO it wasn't, it was Chiti's at the time latest engine and as I said, any good designer would take his best ideas forward and improve on other areas every time they could.
Pete
I agree!
 

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Some of this thread brings to mind the picture of John Nash's garage in "A beautiful mind"
 

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Regarding the origins of the engine this debate was made before in other threads I seem to recall but gtv2000 expressed the same feelings I had since I have both the book "Nel cuore dell' Alfa" by Busso which quite clearly states how Busso was unhappy that Chiti was given the engine when Busso's team had projected it. Indeed in the same book Busso explains how he researched the magnesium castings for the chassis from France subsequently made there and used on the race car. So much of the initial projection of the tipo 33 race car was in my opinion done in house headed by Busso/Satta. When Autodelta took ownership of the project surely Chiti could have developed and changed the engine according to best principles (learned from previous experience) but the skeletal framework of the engine was not his nor part of an earlier engine in my opinion.
One has to also consider when designing the new race engines there will in my humble opinion always be parts/sections that remind one of other previous engines, especially in this case other Italian engines so new engines could use a similar (but improved) evolutionary layout unless the design is completely revolutionary.
 

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Just received my copy of Autocar of 10th September 1970 in which the Alfa Romeo tipo 33 history is told in detail until this date and the article by Ray Hutton clearly states "...though Chiti is himself an engine designer, the 90 degree v8 four camshaft power unit was the work of Orazio Satta Puliga , "father" of the Giulietta and now the chief of the Alfa Romeo experimental department, and Giuseppe Busso. Other aspects of the cars design cannot be attributed fairly to any one person, having been jointly developed by Autodelta and Alfa Romeo's experimental department.." to which I can add that the magnesium castings were an idea of Busso.
 
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