[oz3litre]

I suspect some of these people are not real car enthusiasts. Owning cars like that is just a thing they do to go with their elitist image and perhaps for investment or tax dodging purposes. They often don't drive the cars. Real enthusiasts drive the pants off their cars. I admire the rich people who drive their cars and are happy to talk to ordinary people about them and put on a show. We have a colourful mining magnate here in Australia who is a senator with his own party and he has been stirring up the other politicians by driving cars from his collection to parliament lately. They hate it that he doesn't turn up in the obligatory white Holden limo. He drove his 1950s Roller the other day and had to get out and whack the starter motor to get it started afterwards. The next day he took his new red Merc Gullwing coupe. That is cool in my book.

 

[1.6 HF]

Searching for perfection in any human activity is liable to be a frustrating exercise–not least in connection with car shows. Pebble Beach does a better job than any other show at vetting the cars on the lawn; they really do try to keep the money honest. But they don’t have the resources to do exhaustive investigations of every car. So the older and more obscure the prospective entry, the more possible it is for something to slip by, whether through the owner’s ignorance/wishful thinking or the owner’s active deception.

Unlike virtually every other concours, the judges at Pebble know ahead of time which cars they’ll be judging, thus enabling them to research the cars in their judging class. A few years back a friend ended up with 99 points, when a judge deducted 1 point for a non-original paint color, based on the set of period Zagato color chips that the judge had brought with him. But again, with obscure models or one-offs, there may not be much information available, and the published information that is available may be wrong.

So, yes–it’s possible to buy your way onto the Pebble lawn, and to buy your way onto the awards ramp. Just find an important enough car and give a top restorer a blank check. But it’s likely to involve hiring a historian as well as a restorer–and betting that one of your judges doesn’t have the color chips that prove you wrong.

Anywhere else it’s quite a bit easier; at the typical regional concours, judging often requires little other than a blazer and khakis, and ignorance and active deception are in far greater supply.

 

[DPeterson3]

In the end, there are those that build, and those that complain.

 

[PSk]

Anywhere else it’s quite a bit easier; at the typical regional concours, judging often requires little other than a blazer and khakis, and ignorance and active deception are in far greater supply.

Maybe. My father entered a club concours once and the judge was an idiot and deduced that our front suspension was massively incorrectly setup because the Yokohama A008R tyres had no tread on the outside edge, and nothing we said could sway his decision ... total fool.
Pete

 

[Pat Braden]

Dissilusioned with Pebble Beach Concours

Big money sometimes (not always) equals bigger egos. In 2007 during the awesome Alfa Romeo Owners Club Convention hosted by the Detroit chapter many crazy Alfisti noted first hand the absurd snob-like action of some very amazing and extremely rare Alfas that were to be present at the Meadowbrook Concours the day after and literally a few hundred yards away from the Convention Concours which happened the day prior. There was an opportunity for many fortunate historical Alfa owners (the likes of Touring Spyder 2900 B, 6C's and many 1900 Coupes..) to display their amazing cars to the hundreds of real Alfisti who drove from all over the country and instead they literally left them in their F'n trailers so that only a handful of appreciative Alfisti could see them the following day.

One year later, I chaired the AROC Convention in Chicago. Met a wonderful man who had many contacts with Post-War Alfa owners. We discussed how to approach them to bring their cars and to share them with real enthusiasts. At the end of the day.....it would have taken a special Banquet for "Them" with special Trophies. Of course, organized by "Us" pheasants " Needless to say, that idea never materialized. I would prefer to kick tires on dozen tired 105's rather than wear floods to cow-dung concours.

On the flip side.....have met plenty of owners with great-great cars with endless generosity.

Having been to many Concours, both local clubs and high-end exclusive with Pat, I have a fairly good idea first-hand how incidental quibbles between judges on the green can lead to full out war when a car owner is offended over point deductions or claims that the car is non-original.

(For the reason above, I have kept my distance from Pat's Memorial Award that is given every year at the AROC National Convention for "The People's Choice." I don't vote in it, handle ballots, count ballots etc. Some well-known Alfisti, and friends of Pat, have had difficulty understanding this decision.)

I have also met some very rich car owners who were very nice people and were able to keep their egos in check.

Before Pat and I would attend events, he had a pretty good idea who would/might be there and I had been schooled to whom I could talk freely and to whom it would be inappropriate, especially, with a younger wife that was still learning the ropes to Alfadom and its class culture and structure.

I learned to listen intently and silently, to the point that when we would get home, Pat would ask me, "O.k., how many social security and credit card numbers did you learn at the event?" And yes, that is a joke, but you would be absolutely amazed at what people will share, when they think no one is really listening.

Searching for perfection in any human activity is liable to be a frustrating exercise–not least in connection with car shows. Pebble Beach does a better job than any other show at vetting the cars on the lawn; they really do try to keep the money honest. But they don’t have the resources to do exhaustive investigations of every car. So the older and more obscure the prospective entry, the more possible it is for something to slip by, whether through the owner’s ignorance/wishful thinking or the owner’s active deception.

Unlike virtually every other concours, the judges at Pebble know ahead of time which cars they’ll be judging, thus enabling them to research the cars in their judging class. A few years back a friend ended up with 99 points, when a judge deducted 1 point for a non-original paint color, based on the set of period Zagato color chips that the judge had brought with him. But again, with obscure models or one-offs, there may not be much information available, and the published information that is available may be wrong.

So, yes–it’s possible to buy your way onto the Pebble lawn, and to buy your way onto the awards ramp. Just find an important enough car and give a top restorer a blank check. But it’s likely to involve hiring a historian as well as a restorer–and betting that one of your judges doesn’t have the color chips that prove you wrong.

Anywhere else it’s quite a bit easier; at the typical regional concours, judging often requires little other than a blazer and khakis, and ignorance and active deception are in far greater supply.

I'm not sure where Amelia Island places in respect to Pebble Beach, other than in the same field as far as upper end car shows, but Pat was involved in the discovery of one of the biggest frauds at Amelia Island, where the car deal was actually unwound based on the discovery and it came at a time that worked well for me as far as paper writing on authenticity for a class when I was working on my MLIS.

 

[divotandtralee]

It's all part of the territory.... I do agree there is wealth without egos and those people are just as fun to be around as anyone.

 

[180OUT]

It's all part of the territory.... I do agree there is wealth without egos and those people are just as fun to be around as anyone.

Well said. One of my favorite gearhead heroes is Toly Artunoff. Toly comes from Oklahoma oil money and has a long, illustrious, reputation as a racer, collector, and adventurer. He's a real celebrity. In 06, at the Tulsa Alfa convention, stood in a parking lot and talked to us for about 2.5 hours, happily exchaning stories, telling us about his cars, and just genuinely enjoying the company of other gearheads. He could easily be a snob, but he isn't.

Toly has done legendary stuff, but my favorite story about him was his Pebble Beach appearance. He'd been invited to display his Ferrari Zagato so, of course, he drove it from Tulsa to the concourse. He was a little late getting there, so he just drove straight to the councourse and displayed the Ferrari complete with road grime and Jack N The Box wrappers. Pure Toly.

 

[damianjc]

I have always been of the opinion that there are two types of car enthusiasts, the car people that are genuinely passionate about their cars and care for them and drive them as they were designed to be driven, or the badge buyers that buy cars to tell people what they own and use them as a status symbol. As for who and what type of person falls into what category, there is no hard and fast rule as I have met and known all types, both without and with fortunes behind them. In short however, it does not take long for the car people to work out who the badge buyers are. Unfortunately, the wonderfully creative stories about provenance and racing, are not perpetuated by the real car people and one could be left to question what this type of event is really about given recent form. The history of this car is well known by all, and it did not require a rocket scientist, nor a group or panel of highly paid automotive historians to work out that something was very wrong ? In this instance, there is no excuse and once again, I am sorry to say that the bar has been lowered to a point it should never have been lowered.

 

[divotandtralee]

I have always been of the opinion that there are two types of car enthusiasts, the car people that are genuinely passionate about their cars and care for them and drive them as they were designed to be driven, or the badge buyers that buy cars to tell people what they own and use them as a status symbol. As for who and what type of person falls into what category, there is no hard and fast rule as I have met and known all types, both without and with fortunes behind them. In short however, it does not take long for the car people to work out who the badge buyers are. Unfortunately, the wonderfully creative stories about provenance and racing, are not perpetuated by the real car people and one could be left to question what this type of event is really about given recent form. The history of this car is well known by all, and it did not require a rocket scientist, nor a group or panel of highly paid automotive historians to work out that something was very wrong ? In this instance, there is no excuse and once again, I am sorry to say that the bar has been lowered to a point it should never have been lowered.

Well said... there have been instances of public thrashings of cars ending up in name calling court cases. I would let the sleeping dog lie.

 

[OZ GTV]

The G1 also ran in this years Mille Migila. It was entered as an Alfa Romeo G1
and was still as it appeared at Pebble Beach. At least it is being used.

 

[divotandtralee]

The Mille Miglia the bastion of gentlemen drivers. It is to automobiles as St. Andrews is to golf.... sorry but I am not the least bit surprised.. or p.o.ed. I hope they had a blast!

 

[oz3litre]

The G1 also ran in this years Mille Migila. It was entered as an Alfa Romeo G1
and was still as it appeared at Pebble Beach. At least it is being used.

It was being used before. I still can't get over how ugly it looks now. That colour is horrible.

 

[damianjc]

Current State of Play

The Mille Miglia the bastion of gentlemen drivers. It is to automobiles as St. Andrews is to golf.... sorry but I am not the least bit surprised.. or p.o.ed. I hope they had a blast!

I had missed the appearance of this car at the MM, how it was deemed appropriate as a legitimate entry, one can only ponder ? At this point, we should probably highlight for those that are unfamiliar with the MM, that it is, or was strictly limited to cars that ran in period from 1927-1957. In this instance, I can also guarantee that no G1 ever ran a Mille Miglia in period. Especially given that the lighter and faster RL series cars (including the RLTF) were already in the market place and winning races by 1924. Not to mention the much lighter and faster 6C Alfa Romeo's, which were amongst the most successful cars in period, and were already on the road by 1927 when the MM started. It would appear that the Pebble Beach appearance and this G1's racing myth, has opened many other doors, and sad to say, that the legend will probably continue to build and perpetuate in an historically inaccurate manner.

 

[divotandtralee]

Well said, it just makes a mockery out of all these sell appointed pinheads who bequeath grille badges on cars for originality and historical significance.. clanging champagne glasses and passing the caviar as they go. AAA is the only one that matters to me and they don't ask if my car is original when I call for a tow.

Furthermore, I don't need a certificate or a frigging badge to tell people my car is put together right.. so save the certificates and badges and the self created bureaucracy that was spawned to anoint those seeking anointment.

 

[oz3litre]

One has to wonder if the owner of the G1 has some sort of influence over these people. Have there been any other examples of cars entering MM that were the wrong age?

 

[peter m]

G1 revisited

Come on chaps, lets stand back a bit from the bevy of postings. Earlier this year I wrote this in the UK AROC magazine in my usual slot although for 6C2300/2500/1900 register:
And a great article on the early Alfa, but I disagree on the penultimate paragraph. That is not to take anything away from Flewell-Smith who did a marvellous job to rescue the car, but I went to see it in 2005. I lay in a car park on the Pebble Beach ‘run’ to take a set of photographs for the owner of a rare G1 Sport, (not mentioned in ‘Fusi’ but shown in one of my original brochures). A “Chocolate box cover car dipped in red plastic” was my impression.]Although I could not contact Shooshani, I managed to make contact with the restorer and included this extract from a letter I had received in 2005 from Damian:
To be brutally honest, we were all very surprised that it was allowed to be shown at Pebble Beach as there is not much about the car that is correct except for the engine (which is not the original) and wheels. Most people in Australia that know their cars, have never really taken it seriously with the mocked up racing body as it should have an early Italian Torpedo style body to match the Touring chassis ~ The body was copied off the G1 Sport Racer that was meant to have been built for Enzo I am happy to quote the restorer’s response to my enthusiasm:

When we took delivery of the car it looked a bit like a fire truck. We had the car on blocks with the fenders off for some work. Got to looking at it. Humm, looks like the cars in those early Alfa team photos. What if we get rid of that bright red paint, and make it look like a proper Alfa racing car? And so it went. Raised quite a bru ha ha when we showed up at Pebble Beach.And in a later e-mail:

We did no changes on the chassis or the mechanical, just modified the main cabin, didn’t rebuild the entire thing, We moved the gas tank closer to the cabin. As shown in the attached photo

So, I contacted Damian and said “you must be pleased” and was surprised when he said “no”.
A little later he sent me the Alfabb thread, which I had never seen (as I rarely look at anything on the web unless prompted).
Whether the car had been tarted-up (and I have chosen my description deliberately) for Pebble Beach in 2005 after leaving Australia, I know not. And yes, it was too early for a likely original MM participant even if it had been a race car. And the fenders were removed to be “in the spirit” of the retro MM (a reversible operation if necessary).
But what are events like Pebble Beach and the MM retro for? The more popular that they become, the more they are for the spectator too.
For an example of authenticity there was one car in this years MM and a car which had competed in it a couple of years running not long ago, entered with the same chassis number. They were two different cars. Did the competitors know, did the spectators know, was any enjoyment lost? It should not have happened, but it did. Of course, one should try to be authentic but creating something in the spirit-of when there is nothing much left original seems pretty good.
The danger is that someone has a recreation made, and it becomes sold, and then become sold again and suddenly it becomes no longer a recreation. C’est la vie ~ buyer beware. Brochure, painting, automobilia, rare stamp. You cannot change life.

Peter

 

[PSk]

Oh come on Peter. Pebble Beach and the MM is not just about the spectators. Spectators get just as much fun watching real cars as you say they won't know the difference.

Fact is a G1 never raced and Fusi suggested the body style that was on the G1 before as it was the most sporting actually offered. Yes it should have been built as it was but there was nothing left but at least a racing history was not invented. Yes the red was very bright but for some strange reason us modern folk like to think of the old days as dull, when of course it wasn't.

The current owner should build a touring body and if you like do the restoration properly ... instead as so many with old cars they've invented a competition history. Amazing how 95% of surviving old cars have a competition history ... Lol.

Might just go and add some old roll cage holes to my GTV ... Hahaha
Pete

 

[technobob]

Peter Marshall asked me to post this photo for him...I don't see any comments by Peter but maybe they will follow this photo upload.
Bob S.

 

[Super1600]

And ?

I am sorry, but regardless of PeterM's comments, I remain firmly of the view and support PSK's comments, that the car is starting to perpetuate a mistruth through its previous PB entry and now MM entry.

The new owner and navigator seem happy from the picture and the perhaps they either don't care, or are oblivious to what messages they send to the wider Alfa community by their apparent disrespect to the car's history.

To me that is sad.

 

[divotandtralee]

I found a MM candidate...Alfa Romeo Other Spider | eBay