Assuming one existed, what would you expect to pay for a perfect '66 to '69 spider?

 

Bama, I know you are thinking about tradin' her in on a new model. Don't do it Bama, remember, "she is your mistress, the 69 spider of your dreams".

 

Alex, as long as am able to "ride" her she will not be leaving my arms.

If I could turn back the hands of time I "might" trade her for this Gina:

gina lollobrigida - Google Search

 

Ya know, there is something really sexy about these 1950's photos.....

Woah, we are getting way off topic, back to finding a nice 66-69 spider. I don't know of any for sale, but if I find one, I will pass it along.

 

What is your price range for such a vehicle? Keeping in mind that a fairly decent example of a red 67 Duetto sold at RM Arizona in January '09 for $46K.

 

fairly decent?? 46k??

 

Price all depends on the car.

When I bought my Alfa in high school, I could only afford 4,000. My budget has expanded greatly since then.

 

from the photos, this looks like a very nice example:
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alf.../forums/alfa-romeo-cars-sale-wanted/180852-1969-alfa-romeo-1750-spider-nyc.html

 

PM sent...

 

... Great if better than new! (and I may have a slight preference for the duetto, but a 1750 european with carbs would be icing on the cake) If one exists!

They do exist in this hemisphere, although they are not abundant... While no Alfas were imported into the U.S. in 1968 (since Alfa was working on the SPICA as the solution to meet U.S. regs), they were imported into Canada. They had the 1750 engine, European cams, carburetors, and the Carello headlight covers.

Best regards,

 

On average, it seems as though Duetto/Roundtail prices are down about $5k from their highpoint 2-3 years ago. I've seen some really nice ones (5 or 6) here on the BB go for $17K - $22K in the last 6 months or so. Good luck!

 

I've seen some really nice ones (5 or 6) here on the BB go for $17K - $22K in the last 6 months or so. Good luck!

Agreed on this price range. I think Rower or anyone seriously seeking for the best / fully restored round-tail need to budget $50K - $70K. (assuming restoring costs between $30K for excellent $50K for concurs plus wait 6-12 months for the project). I think the market willl justify full restoration when Duettos approaching their half century milestone in 2016. Again, they are meant to be driven and enjoyed, there are better investments out there than cars....

 

My two cents: look at some dark blue ones - stunning.

 

I agree that is what it would cost to do it "perfect" from scratch, but not to buy someone else's that has already "done it" ($25K - $35K in this economy). The key will be the elusive equation of "finding it" (aka patience) and "timing".

BTW... finding a "perfect" Duetto/Boattail is child's play compared to finding even a #2 condition Super in the USA. Ask me how I know

 

to buy someone else's that has already "done it" ($25K - $35K in this economy).

May be but I have not seen any "perfect" Duetto on the market for years, there were good to excellent ones for sale but not perfect, let alone original. I think there are only a handful of perfect Duettos today and people are keeping them. Even the $46K duetto was not perfect. If you need a perfect duetto, you really need to restore one.

 

This has all been very useful information.

As to the dark blue comment - that was the color of my original one, though now I may be more partial to red (The Graduate, of course). Both are beautiful.

I have done a full restorations on a Porsche Speedster so I know how pricey that can get. Maybe it is more expensive on an Alfa given the complex body? Not the base car though. And yes you get underwater pretty quickly.

What should a full restoration cost?

Who would be the best people to do one?

And what upgrades would be suggested (for the earlier 66 - 67, or the later ones)? I don't need it to be perfectly original as I intend to use the car. I want it to appear, hood closed, to be original. And perhaps if an engine upgrade made the car more useable to keep the original engine to be replaced. I only do bolt on upgrades that can be removed to restore the car back to its original state.

One fear I have of totally original cars is whether things like the bushings, etc need to be replaced anyway.

thank you again for helping to educate me.

 

I don't need it to be perfectly original as I intend to use the car. I want it to appear, hood closed, to be original. And perhaps if an engine upgrade made the car more useable to keep the original engine to be replaced.

That case, most of the very good 69 roundtails listed here or on eBay will meet your requirements. Most of them still need to complete some bolt-on parts in order to look original, but they can be be sourced from eBay or parts depot, $100 for original steering wheel, for example. "Perfect" means 95 points or higher at the Pebble Beach Concurs standard and I have yet to see one.

 

I bought my 66 Duetto for $13K in October 2010 in VA and put another $2K into it to get it blessed by my Alfa mechanic as safe, etc. (replaced a bearing, recored radiator, adjusted carbs, "diagnostics" on all mechanicals, new fluids). I consider it a solid driver that has a few little projects it needs and that keep me happily fiddling with it, but I also drove it over 100miles at last week's AONE rally without a hitch.

 

I think the high end restoration for any Alfa is going to be,as 67D suggests in that $50k - to $70k range. Not that every Alfa (sorry 105/115) is worth $50k to $70k. But so much of that cost is in the labor and the parts. A Duetto rocker panel is no more expensive than a GTV. Suspension and running gear are all the same. It cost $1,000 to restore a Duetto dash, a GTV dash, a Berlina dash. etc, etc.

But I think, save for specialty cars like a GTA , Duettos are the best body to put that kind of money into.

Great investment? Dunno. Great car? You betcha!

 

Could not agree more. That is why I ultimately went with a good driver rather than a basket case that I could have bought for $2K that would have been a 2 year resto and cost me $30-$50K. When I had proposed the resto game plan to my mechanic, he told me I'd need a psychiatrist more than a mechanic... The market just does not support that type of project unless you don't care about the dollars or are skilled enough (and have the time) to do all the work yourself.

 

Finding a "Perfect" car

Here's my advice, based on a limited involvement with classic and historic cars.
Perfect to me means (a) restored to 100% historic accuracy, (b) every surface and internal on the car must be as new or better. Maybe that's more like a "show" car...


First, it's rare to find a "perfect" classic for sale out of a restoration shop or dealer. Why? Most of these businesses are in it for profit and only do "good enough" convince a buyer to pay top dollar. They understand very well the law of diminishing returns and generally won't bother to invest the time cost to finish the last 10% of a "perfect" restoration.

Second, it's rare to find a "perfect" car in the private market because most owners don't value "perfect" but rather good enough.

The place to find perfect cars is from private owners whose participation in the sport is focused on winning their club's national concours title. The best club concours events are goverened by anally retentive, well educated club judges. These people have strong reference material which is usually supported by the Marque, and a fairly consistent criteria for making judgment of accuracy and condition. If a car rates 100pts via AROC multiple times, it's probably as close to perfect as you'll get.

So, my advice, having tried to buy a near perfect car on several occassions. Buy a clean car with all the original bits still there, pick a restoration shop that specializes in only that brand/car, and have them do a 2 year ground up restoration. Make sure you tell them that time and money take a back seat to getting it right.

John

 

Here's my advice, based on a limited involvement with classic and historic cars.
Perfect to me means (a) restored to 100% historic accuracy, (b) every surface and internal on the car must be as new or better. Maybe that's more like a "show" car...


First, it's rare to find a "perfect" classic for sale out of a restoration shop or dealer. Why? Most of these businesses are in it for profit and only do "good enough" convince a buyer to pay top dollar. They understand very well the law of diminishing returns and generally won't bother to invest the time cost to finish the last 10% of a "perfect" restoration.

Second, it's rare to find a "perfect" car in the private market because most owners don't value "perfect" but rather good enough.

The place to find perfect cars is from private owners whose participation in the sport is focused on winning their club's national concours title. The best club concours events are goverened by anally retentive, well educated club judges. These people have strong reference material which is usually supported by the Marque, and a fairly consistent criteria for making judgment of accuracy and condition. If a car rates 100pts via AROC multiple times, it's probably as close to perfect as you'll get.

So, my advice, having tried to buy a near perfect car on several occassions. Buy a clean car with all the original bits still there, pick a restoration shop that specializes in only that brand/car, and have them do a 2 year ground up restoration. Make sure you tell them that time and money take a back seat to getting it right.

John

John,
Excellent post.
That is also what I refer to as Pebble Beach Concurs Standard of 95 points or higher, no expense spare restoration...

 

For a 66 to 68 (nonUS) 105 Duetto, there are some bits that are needed in a great resto that are unobtainable, especially some of the rubber and plastic bits; the car even has some PAPER bits (heater duct hoses)! Some of the repo parts that are available are not quite right, don't quite fit, etc. Finding a car that has "all" its bits won't even do it as these replacable parts can't be replaced.

Then there's the issue that there is a lot of variation in this group of cars FROM THE FACTORY. Zero, one, or two boosters, ATE or Dunlop brakes, red, yellow,and/or white on the turn signal lenses, two or three holes in the hardtop latches........ After all, in this era, cars were built based on what was on hand.

Also, they were not assembled in chassis order. Pinnafarina made the bodies in a variety of colors and numbered them in order, with variations in attachment and mounting brackets over time. But Alfa assembled cars based on the colors ordered or needed, so the body numbers weren't used in sequence. There was also a lot of turmoil in the labor force in Italy during this period, so there were strikes for days, weeks, sometimes months at Alfa or somewhere in the parts supply chain. And Alfa didn't keep the kind of records US makers commonly do (e.g. no build sheets for each car), so it's hard to tell what is truely original.

Since I own (from brand new in 1967!) a Duetto, I've spent years finding and stockpiling some of the needed and hard to find stuff! Still looking for some things.

The good side is that these are wonderful cars to drive. Simpler, much lighter than later versions; they seem to drive and handle more nimbly, even with the "lower" power of the 1600 - or 1300 ('Junior' - Italian only cars) engines. [There was a big tax break on the smaller engines in Italy].

The hardest problem I've had is deciding what kind of car I really want.

Enjoy

Robert

 

Hijack Alert:

Robert, I never thought about it before but I wonder if there is a correlation between color popularity and rust? I can imagine that the reds, always being in demand would be processed as they came to the assembly factory (strikes notwithstanding). Whereas a less popular color might sit in the yard for some time. I wonder what the poor selling colors of the day were?

Another Hijack Alert:

The paper vent can be found at Centerline Alfa here : Centerline Products: RH455 Heater Defrost Hose Duetto, 105 GTV, and TI 1965-68, 69 Spider

End of Hijack...

 

The bodies were all painted at Pinnafarina, and stockpiled indoors at Alfa. I'm sure they were not hanging around too long, but these were build waaaay before just-in-time manufacturing. More interesting, I'd guess that there are twice as many red Alfas today as were ever manufactured.....

Robert

 

Duetto

Reading about Alfas operations in the sixties brought back some good memories. In 1975 most US dealers went to Milan for the intro of the Alfetta. Prior to picking up our cars ( for a delightful 10 day tour of Italy) we met in a rather large auditorium at the factory for an address by Alfa's CEO (name escapes). This was noteworthy because instead of extolling the virtues of "perceived value" or "unit profitability", the message was how successful the years racing efforts had been and a number of winning drivers were introduced with genuine pride. However, in the midst of all this, the entrance doors flew open to the sound of several brass horns and down both aisles strode a number of uniformed men with AK47 type arms. Their leader took over the podium and lectured us, in Italian, for about five minutes while his troops insured our compliance with leveled weapons. Another tooting of horns and they filed back out. The CEO then explained with some resignation that this was a common type of intrusion for the "Reds" but quickly continued on with forum of racing success. This wasn't a convention of Alfisti, just a bunch of dealers of which only a few were real Alfa guys. Back then it was a crazy, but wonderful, company.

 

The white one I picked up in CA looked pretty good, but it had been hit right rear and left front and repaired, but hard to tell. But after this many years, no car is perfect anymore. For sale when(???), maybe we'll never get it finished, but eventually, just like Alfa will be returning to the USA "next year"!

The bumpers are almost useless. Their overhang low, long tail and nose are easily victims of parking lot damages, let alone surviving moderate accidents. With good body man and material (not bondo), any body damages can be fixed. Considering the resources putting into a full restoration, it is important to have a clean (not salvage) title to protect your investment. Good luck with restoring and hope to see her on the road soon

 

Old truth: It takes 90% of your (time, money, desire) to get 90% done. It takes another 90% to get 99% done. Another 90% to get to 99.9%. Rinse, repeat.

I call it the 90/90/90 rule.

;D
Robert

 

Makes sense. Let's call this "Robert Rule". I respect all those Pebble Beach or similar show winners for their no expense spare restoration. It takes more than passion...

 

rules

My favorite on...The only bad thing about good advice is that it interferes with your plans

 

here is what appears to be a very nice '67. Nose dimple looks OEM and untouched:
1967 Alfa Duetto

 

From the pictures, this one is getting very close to original, one of the best 67 we have seen within the last 12 months. There was a nice one in Fantasy junction, it was a 68 and sold for over $30K.

 

Agreed. Only flaw on quick look is there is a radio antenna but no radio, so assume someone fooled with it. Also no tonneau cover...

 

The is the "Robert Rule" 90/90/90 as discussed a few days ago. The missing items can be sourced and a good body shop can take care if minor holes here and there... Any serious Duetto shopper should take a look at this one.