[fitfan]

I was saying that it is highly unlikely that you need to pull the Spica Pump off at this point. There’s a lot to check before that. Did you check the TA to see if the piston deploys about 7.0 to 8.0 mm in boiling water?

Karl,
TA test results are:
24.9mm @80deg
27.6mm @130deg
30.4mm @175deg
fingers getting toasty and it drops quickly once pulled from water, so probably closer to 31mm at 175. it adjusts rather quickly. upon re-installation TA cold depresses the plunger approx. 1/8" maybe a little more. keep in mind in socal its about 90 deg out right now.

CSS operates instant and smoothly when "hot wired" off battery pos. and returns 'down' freely.

car starts easily, idles slightly lumpy/fluffy at 1,000 rpm. Running rich condition, you can smell gas at tail pipe, driving, backfiring off throttle starting around 4,000 rpm. feels low on power. getting fuel into pump and subsequently into oil. that part is what i don't entirely understand as how it would be both rich injection but also leaking barrels not making pressure. but of the 3 SPICA cars i had in the 80's - 90's i never had any SPICA issues so never really learned much about troubleshooting them. i suppose its possible some injectors are stuck open and flooding some cyl, when others are stuck closed and over pressuring barrels and bypassing gas into spica body? beyond my experience! but removing injectors and servicing them is certainly in my realm (can't find any info on removing - no info in the $40 "manual for alfa spica" about the injectors themselves. removal, installing, cleaning other than what i've read online about soaking in solvent for a week and then running them). of course also possible pump could be 180deg out? and the two issues could be unrelated causes.

since fiddling with all of this the stalling when hot at idle has gone away "shrug" (i improved some wiring connections... but while OK, are now Better.)

still pissing water.... now suspect the expansion tank is clogged, at cold or hot the water is the same level.

 

[fitfan]

agree Don,
all my alfa's were all totally stock and worthless as well! my Brabham looks original, until you look close, adjustable steering column and quick release. (did not exist then). seat looks like just an upholstered fiberglass shell, its not, its a custom molded foam core wrapped in composite. saddle fuel tanks have been removed, wedge fuel cell fitted (don't want to lose the car, or myself in a fire just to be original) all of this is reversible if someone wanted to put it in a museum. the difference between MFI and EFI is bolt on / bolt off stuff. Montreal already has ITB's with injection ports, butterflies and linkage. i'm not saying 'i am going to EFI it" im saying it becomes a tempting improvement if the preferred option of fixing the MFI isn't available to me... technology, manufacturing, market are not forces to spend my life lancing against (imo). i'll be the first to admit that straight 8 pump invokes ww2 fighter images and is super way cool and that is the first option. anyways - still have a plenty of road ahead of me on these issues. tried emailing Ingram again. website says they are currently 11 month backlogged, if that is the state of the world, then in that case we are right back to SPICA as an unreasonable and non-viable solution and then probably would EFI, or even carborate it in that case, or just sell the car off. could always put the spica back when the planets line back up, and rebuilding it is viable to getting it on the road. certainly carbed GT(v) have not hurt resale at all, or PMO 911's. its a value adder.

looking like odds are the Montreal isn't making the tour in October after 2 weeks of work and no results, off to put 3 point seat belts in the Matra!

 

[Tractionavant1]

What sort of Matra do you have Sir?

 

[fitfan]

What sort of Matra do you have Sir?

1969 M530 "A" or first series. (less chrome than LX). all have the same mid engine V4, although mine has the later weber 32/36 upgrad to replace the stock crap solex. it is the ultimate conversation starter!

...and great screen name btw

 

[Tractionavant1]

Car is stunning! Ive always wanted a Djet 👌

 

[DPeterson3]

Fit…

I’d go slow on being sure the Spica pump pistons and cylinders are worn and leaking.

The pistons in the Spica have no rings. The very tight tolerances rely on the pressure below the piston to balance the pressure above the piston. At least, that’s what was explained to me.

Have you checked the pressure between the main filter and Spica input? Use a tee, NOT a deadhead.

Where are you located?

 

[fitfan]

Don,
i have not done that, trying (to the best of my knowledge on such things) move methodically through the most obvious common issue to the lesser... so that is very good test suggestions and now if a good time to move to test like that. i suppose what i'm looking for is a dead regulator over pressurizing the spica? (i'd give that a 100% possible rating!)

and yes, all i know at this point is fuel is getting into the logic section, why and how i don't know... but i suspect there could be a few things causing that. i also have not checked the pump timing. some of this i might off load to a skilled shop that can assess such things faster and better than me, and who actually know what the results mean to do. i might go ahead and pull the injectors, simply because that doable, and also probable. there is an invoice from "engineered automotive" in ontario canada in 2017 to "replace 2 stuck open injectors and service other 6, recalibrate system" fixed? or made it worse? dunno... anyways - perhaps all injectors are not good, or perhaps something has not been set up correctly (although everything spica related ive looked into seem "correct". admittedly, not much yet though. barometric lever was "up" not down. and so on, will keep reading and checking,

if nothing else = this is a good primer for all thing spica, good, bad, and ugly i like to know how my cars are put together, and how to put keep them healthy.

im in San Diego. name is Rodney, you might not recall but we spoke about your car when it was on BaT and i was bidding. so that Montreal itch never went away!

 

[fitfan]

D'jets are very cool - lots of history there. what i like about the M530 is that it was Matra's first in house car from the ground up, is technically far more advanced than most anything else of the era. while it's not a particularly fast car, it has sports racing assumptions in its design (a kind of monocoque chassis. mid engine, all independent suspension, very conventional race car stuff in the mid 60's). also my car was built in '69. the same year jackie stewart won the WC driving for Matra. i like to imagine him walking through the factory on his way to the race shop and passing by my car being built, probably throwing a chewing gum wrapper in the trunk or something. its a riot to drive though, needs springs and shocks, the joke is while keeping up with various other vintage cars is that they are worried my elbow will scrape on the ground, it rolls THAT much. also passengers will make funny sounds when you never lift and just crank it through a corner.

 

[robo330]

I am sure after having my friend Steve Maccarone help me set up my Fuel Mixture and ( he lives in Atlanta, Georgia by the way), that people who don’t understand the principle of how the Pump works are in a hurry to give up on it and look for something they are more familiar with.
By the way, you are only getting about 5.0 mm of extension on your TA.
At Room Temperature, the Spica TA plunger should extend about 23.0 mm from the Mounting Flange of the Actuator. Now repeat the test with the bulb immersed in boiling water. Measure the water temperature because boiling occurs at significantly less than 100 degrees C (212 degrees F.
The TA should have an extension of 23.0 mm at 20 degrees C and 31.0 mm at 100 degrees C (212 F). If the TA is out of spec, it must either be replaced or rebuilt.

 

[robo330]

Centerline advertise one for $390 plus a $150 Core. Check it out! I’d get it!!

 

[robo330]

Wes Ingram lists them for $395. He will need your Core as well.
Centerline are out of stock

 

[DPeterson3]

Don,
i have not done that, trying (to the best of my knowledge on such things) move methodically through the most obvious common issue to the lesser... so that is very good test suggestions and now if a good time to move to test like that. i suppose what i'm looking for is a dead regulator over pressurizing the spica? (i'd give that a 100% possible rating!)

and yes, all i know at this point is fuel is getting into the logic section, why and how i don't know... but i suspect there could be a few things causing that. i also have not checked the pump timing. some of this i might off load to a skilled shop that can assess such things faster and better than me, and who actually know what the results mean to do. i might go ahead and pull the injectors, simply because that doable, and also probable. there is an invoice from "engineered automotive" in ontario canada in 2017 to "replace 2 stuck open injectors and service other 6, recalibrate system" fixed? or made it worse? dunno... anyways - perhaps all injectors are not good, or perhaps something has not been set up correctly (although everything spica related ive looked into seem "correct". admittedly, not much yet though. barometric lever was "up" not down. and so on, will keep reading and checking,

if nothing else = this is a good primer for all thing spica, good, bad, and ugly i like to know how my cars are put together, and how to put keep them healthy.

im in San Diego. name is Rodney, you might not recall but we spoke about your car when it was on BaT and i was bidding. so that Montreal itch never went away!

The likely failure modes of the two electric pumps does NOT include the failure of the regulator and resulting over pressure. Likewise, the injectors are not likely suspects.

Both pumps have their own regulator, and failure is more likely to result in lower pressure. The pumps, however, are known to have finite lives. This is why we suggest that an early test when diagnosing a Spica system is the pressure after the main filter with the engine running. Progress is made when vital signs are confirmed as good or failed. As voltage has a noticeable impact on pump pressure. With the engine at idle you’ll be happy with 7+ psi. More is better. At any RPM above about 1,5000-2,000 you want pressure up around 15-17 psi.

 

[robo330]

This is what Don is speaking about - the Pressure Gauge can be seen in the right hand side foreground.

 

[fitfan]

can and will rig up a pressure gauge, thats easy. will do, thanks.

im unclear on how my TA is out of spec? i got almost 6mm of travel between 80deg and only 175. i never got it any hotter than that,. i suppose i could put it in the fridge to start at 68deg and also do a hotter high temp. but based on doing the above a few times in and out of the water, seemed to be what i have in ingrams notes? (they say start extension is irrelevant?) all that said - i am NOT connfidant the SPICA is set up correctly (just general experience reading the invoice from 2017 does not instill confidence, could be wrong!). i inquired ingram about buying a montreal TA over 10 days ago... i don't think they can help here. if i'm reading ingrams notes correctly the TA should not be actuating the spica plunger cold, as i noted, mine is absolutely actuating the plunger by 1/8"+. i had to depress the TA in order to run the bolts down. (i didn't have the "spica manual" at this time and did not want to start monkeying with stuff just yet.) also reading that, need to check the idle air circuit.

agree - a lot of ground to cover on sorting this out - i feel 100% confident in being able to sort out running and tune on the SPICA settings, because everyone has over and over for decades. and that why i'm totally loving all the help, advice, exeraince, and comments here!! - thanks you all very much super helpful. - this, is 'just work to learn and do or hire out"

i'm very concerned about the sica dumping fuel internally and into the engine oil. according to ingram, that's an instant full rebuild. so given my limited knowledge on spica im kinda taking the experts statement at face value there. but i have also read that various over rich running conditions can also cause it to internally dump fuel, what and how... i don't know but look forward to learning.

man, that read painted engine bay looks nice!!! also like the opened up naca duct? very nice, tasteful and clean!

Thanks again for all the comment and information! please please keep them coming, im drinking from the fire hose and coughing up a bit!

 

[robo330]

Did you read my earlier note? You need 8.0 mm of extension. Read the note. It also tells you what the dimension is (cold) from the bottom of the mounting flange to the tip of the piston. Read the note mate!

 

[Clear_View]

With the engine at idle you’ll be happy with 7+ psi. More is better. At any RPM above about 1,5000-2,000 you want pressure up around 15-17 psi.

Don, I've always operated under the assumption that the fuel pressure range at the inlet to the Spica pump should be at least 1.5 kg/cm2 (21.3 psi) with a maximum of 1.85 kg/cm2 (26.3 psi).

Is this incorrect?

 

[fitfan]

yes i did, thats why im confused on this point, as that is different than what ingram says in his book? i'm sure im missing something here? maybe the book is not true for montreal's? or some other factors im not aware of?

TA needs to extend at least 6mm = check (i could cool it to start shorter and get more extension, maybe that's the part i'm missing? verify it does that? - i do not find the 8mm required extension information? but maybe that is just a fact missed in the book)
Hot minum extension of 25mm. = check
Hot must be 27 - 31 mm. = Check (mine is obviously a 31mm TA - bottom / top dimension is dictated by rebuild / type of TA? not an absolute dimension, and this is set in the pump correct? or am i missing something about this? (ingram says "all rebuilt TA are 31mm" TA's)
replace if fails above = mine passes appears to pass, albeit my "cold, was "luke warm" and my hot might have been less than 175deg as i took it out of the water to measure it.

in the book it shows (and refers to a reference gap to "B") the TA having a gap to the plunger screw. i have no gap cold (~80-90deg). i have not tried adjusting the plunger screw as of yet until i understand all this better. if im reading this right it sounds like the procedure is to make a dummy TA (to 30.4mm or simply 31mm in my case), screw that in and go about setting the reference gap?

please advise, maybe a phone call if you are will and able to assist? i can take out the TA again, got no problem testing it again and can refrigerate it to start with true cold, and then go full hot like you recommend. i suppose it is entirely possible there is no more bottom or top beyond the temps i used (skeptical based on how much and quickly it moved, but possible for sure)... hey, its my first time testing a TA and just going by notes and images from the book online - i now have the book, and your additional information.

it's also not clear to me in the image in the book is saying there is actually to be gap between the TA cold and the plunger to be expected cold, or its simply showing that how it ends up once the reference gap is set hot? or shim the TA if the plunger bottoms out before 31mm? i have not, but can measure this. i need to go back and read it all again as the info is kinda scattered around in the book, it is not the most methodical manual! if there should be a physical gap there cold - i definitely don't have that.

Thanks for all the help and setting me straight where what i've understood above to be wrong, im often wrong.

 

[rharre13]

The likely failure modes of the two electric pumps does NOT include the failure of the regulator and resulting over pressure. Likewise, the injectors are not likely suspects.

Both pumps have their own regulator, and failure is more likely to result in lower pressure. The pumps, however, are known to have finite lives. This is why we suggest that an early test when diagnosing a Spica system is the pressure after the main filter with the engine running. Progress is made when vital signs are confirmed as good or failed. As voltage has a noticeable impact on pump pressure. With the engine at idle you’ll be happy with 7+ psi. More is better. At any RPM above about 1,5000-2,000 you want pressure up around 15-17 psi.

The sound of my rear pumps oscillate to my turn signal- pitch is lower when turn signal is on and higher when its off, so I come to a stop with my blinker on and the pump behind me is going up down up down up down to the blinker.

 

[Clear_View]

On another thread rharre13 said:
#13 · Aug 8, 2023 - Thanks so much for your help, fedegi. I will check when my meter comes in the mail and I will find the voltage regulator!

Hope it has an Ohm meter, as well.

Essential tool for older vehicles; especially eary-70s Alfas.

Become intimately familiar with the term 'voltage drop'...and how the tests are performed.

 

[robo330]

Check the grounds for the rear lamps. They are very poorly done, earth is to the body of the lamps hoping it grounds through the vacuum plating! Ground everything and make the wires as short as possible and a lot of your problems will go away.