[PSk]

@ToyDC145, what was your old user name and we can sort this out for you. Maybe put all your old posts under this new user name
Pete

 

[Sergio105]

A few years back when I bought RHD GTA 752556, I contacted Centro Storico for the manufacture details and they asked for a whole list of proof of the car and ownership before they would send any information.
This included current dated photos of the car, the chassis number & various other aspects before they would even begin looking.
Within days of supplying them with their requirements, a reply with the details was forthcoming.
Incidentally, July 20th 1965 was 752556's birthday, so 60 years coming up soon.

Yes. This is a "consolidated" practice that the Documentation Center adopts with data requests for GTA, TI SUPER, and TZ chassis, as they are aware of potential clones or unauthorized replicas. Marco Fazio confirmed this to me directly at the time.

 

[South Africa]

I am attempting to trace the history of my original GTAm motor, D2 0.., which I am attempting to sell. Marco Fazio etc are not able to help.

 

[Sergio105]

I am attempting to trace the history of my original GTAm motor, D2 0.., which I am attempting to sell. Marco Fazio etc are not able to help.

I imagine. But it's not that simple. For example, the specific drawings 105.11 / 105.16 / 105.32 etc. were supplied (not all...) directly by Autodelta with an internal code and were then drawn in AR and assigned a serial number.
But for engines, it's quite different. Everything was archived at Autodelta.
For example, on behalf of a friend who is rebuilding it, I asked the Documentation Center if they had anything on the GTA-SA engine: an exploded view, various drawings, tables, graphs... Nothing. They have none of this in the Archives. A real shame.

 

[Sergio105]

For example:

 

[ToyDC145]

@ToyDC145, what was your old user name and we can sort this out for you. Maybe put all your old posts under this new user name
Pete

Hi, Peter.
I think it was Toy de Carvalho.
But, as I had problems logging in as I had earlier with this one, I just gave up for several years.
Best wishes.

 

[ToyDC145]

I am attempting to trace the history of my original GTAm motor, D2 0.., which I am attempting to sell. Marco Fazio etc are not able to help.

What is the number? The original numbers started with 105.51. I'm also in SA and I'm an ex-editor of Johannesburg Club Arcsa's magazine.

 

[pescara]

I know somewhere sitting in dust a GTAm engine and lot of parts waiting for a new owner... not cheap if I remember well

 

[ToyDC145]

The photo attached is of the car I have mentioned before, which was prepared in South Africa. Note it ahead of what is supposed to be faster cars.

 

[ToyDC145]

I imagine. But it's not that simple. For example, the specific drawings 105.11 / 105.16 / 105.32 etc. were supplied (not all...) directly by Autodelta with an internal code and were then drawn in AR and assigned a serial number.
But for engines, it's quite different. Everything was archived at Autodelta.
For example, on behalf of a friend who is rebuilding it, I asked the Documentation Center if they had anything on the GTA-SA engine: an exploded view, various drawings, tables, graphs... Nothing. They have none of this in the Archives. A real shame.

As far as I'm concerned the engine internals were the same as any other 1600 GHTA. Don't expect anything from the Centro Storico.

 

[ToyDC145]

Hi Olaf.
I've contacted the Centro Storico and given them the full history of the car in SA and Angola, including the date it arrived and who bought it. They confirmed what I told them, including that it was an RHD, the interior and exterior colour, but refused to give me the chassis number.
Have a good evening.
Toy

 

[ToyDC145]

What is the number? The original numbers started with 105.51. I'm also in SA and I'm an ex-editor of Johannesburg Club Arcsa's magazine.

 

[vsharp]

While the USA version 1750 engine number started with 105.51, for racing conversion this only applies to where an actual 105.51 stamped block was used as the donor. In many cases, possibly most, a new unstamped spare parts block was used by Autodelta for the modifying process. Logically this would save the issues of having to dismantle a built engine, removing and discarding many of the parts in order to replace with the special homologated GTAm Gp2 components.
This is why many of the Autodelta engines are blank other than a minor stamping of D or AD- 123 for example. I have a selection of several AD engine variants with blank or minor ID numbers on.
I imagine the '2000 short stroke' GTA engine of van Rooyen's was most made up of a mono-sleeved 1600 block with perhaps a 87mm bore and 82mm 1600 billet crankshaft. This combination gives approx 1950cc.
Is the wide body 1600 in the grid photo the same car (more modified) as the one discussed in the 'dirt racer' thread?

 

[South Africa]

I know somewhere sitting in dust a GTAm engine and lot of parts waiting for a new owner... not cheap if I remember well

my situation exactly!

just accepting offers - no specific number quoted.

the motor number stamped on one of the engine blocks is D2 0.. - without dosclosing all the information. I am made to believe that this motor was imported to SA by Basil van Rooyen in the 1970’s.

 

[ToyDC145]

While the USA version 1750 engine number started with 105.51, for racing conversion this only applies to where an actual 105.51 stamped block was used as the donor. In many cases, possibly most, a new unstamped spare parts block was used by Autodelta for the modifying process. Logically this would save the issues of having to dismantle a built engine, removing and discarding many of the parts in order to replace with the special homologated GTAm Gp2 components.
This is why many of the Autodelta engines are blank other than a minor stamping of D or AD- 123 for example. I have a selection of several AD engine variants with blank or minor ID numbers on.
I imagine the '2000 short stroke' GTA engine of van Rooyen's was most made up of a mono-sleeved 1600 block with perhaps a 87mm bore and 82mm 1600 billet crankshaft. This combination gives approx 1950cc.
Is the wide body 1600 in the grid photo the same car (more modified) as the one discussed in the 'dirt racer' thread?

Hi, vsharp.
Basil van Rooyen owned Superformance. While racing Mustangs in Modified Saloons, he raced a standard, but properly tuned, 1600 Sprint GT in Standard Production cars in 1966. When the GTA arrived that year, it had less power than the 1600 GT he was running in Standard Production. Many were not surprised as they had problems dealing with Autodelta, such as paying for one thing and receiving something different.
But that is another story.
Alfa Romeo SA (ARSA), asked Superformance to see what they could do to improve the GTA's performance.
Basil asked ARSA for a block, which he cut in half, lengthwise. Then he modified it with the cylinders off-centre, like, for example, the 5-cylinder VW. The water was channelled out of the block, as the new bores interfere with it, and the capacity increased to 1830cc. When it got to Kyalami, which had a mile-long straight, the car clocked faster times than the Mustang.
The sleeves and the head were machined off-centre to accommodate the block.
The class at the time was up to three litres, so the increase made no difference. The Alfa's main opposition was an Escort BDA.
When Basil started racing in F1 with a McLaren, he asked Arnold Chatz to take over the car.
By then, the new GTAm, which some say stands for maggirata, others for America, which makes more sense as all of the factory cars fell under the American fuel-injected specifications, serial numbers, was available. Sampie Bosman took over the car and took it to new heights.
He used GTAm parts and improved them. Arnold Chatz drove the now two-litre car to great success.
It should be noted that Arnold Chatz is the Alfa Romeo works driver with the highest number of class and overall victories in the world.
Of interest is that all the Autodelta parts were brought to SA by Arnold, such as wheels, suspension parts, etc, as hand luggage in the flight home.
Finally, the GTAm never raced in the US as the rules did not permit widened bodies.
The photo with the wide body I posted yesterday, taken in Angola, is the car discussed here, after Sampie Bosman had worked on it. While it was racing with the 1830cc engine, the body was standard.
Toy.
PS: I'm not a specialist on the GTA, but after dealing with both Arnold and the late Basil, both great and patient gentlemen, I know a bit about it. Besides, I've been writing on Alfas since 1977. If I have a model that I know better than all others, it is the 8C 2900.

 

[vsharp]

Hi Toy,
I have to laugh about your statement 'Autodelta: paying for one thing and receiving another'.... Like paying for a new GTAm and receiving a used worn out one instead with no explanation! :- Brian Foley, 1971 here in Australia.
I would be interested to know more about that engine block modification to understand exactly what was done with the bore & stroke. I can't quite picture just what you mean so far. I am an engineer/engine machinist for the past 45+ years, so I am interested in all things Alfa related in particular.
It seems to be quite common that in the far distant places without access the parent factory facilities, some of the most inventive and radical engineering solutions took place.
Regards,
Vince.

 

[ToyDC145]

Hi Toy,
I have to laugh about your statement 'Autodelta: paying for one thing and receiving another'.... Like paying for a new GTAm and receiving a used worn out one instead with no explanation! :- Brian Foley, 1971 here in Australia.
I would be interested to know more about that engine block modification to understand exactly what was done with the bore & stroke. I can't quite picture just what you mean so far. I am an engineer/engine machinist for the past 45+ years, so I am interested in all things Alfa related in particular.
It seems to be quite common that in the far distant places without access the parent factory facilities, some of the most inventive and radical engineering solutions took place.
Regards,
Vince.

Hi Vince.
To increase the bore, Basil who emigrated to Australia and sadly passed on last year, machined the bores off-centre in zig-zag. Like that, the walls of say 1 and 3 bores were extended to the left and 2 and 4 to the right. Of course this intefered with the water passages, so he circulated the water on the outside of the engine block, entering one side and exiting the other.

Unfortunatelly the picture below is the only one I have taken at the time.
It was sent to me in 2017 by Basil after he had been in SA.
Basil v. Rooyen (R) with Nino Epifani chief development engineer at Superformance, and the new GTA head. Photo. B. van Rooyen.
He also sent me the following.
"The process called for pistons with offset domes to align the domes with the combustion chambers. This reduced any coolant flow to one side of the sleeves so a feed was supplied externally from the water pump. The engine gave 180 hp, up from 135 before (though Autodelta claimed 160) The first practice at Kyalami I think, confirmed our figures when the car was 6 seconds faster than in 1600 form, taking 2 seconds off my Mustang's lap record for saloons. Later when I handed the car to Arnold, to concentrate on a F1 opportunity, Autodelta had developed a mono sleeve which gave 2000cc and some better rear suspension stuff and he took the car still further."

Perhaps, being in Australia, you can find something about him from his descendants. (a shot in the dark) I believe at one time he was involved developing a two-stroke engine and later a pool cleaning machine.
As for the Autodelta dealings,. An Angolan driver bought a 33 and paid for a 2.5 litre motor. the car arrived with a 2.0 litre off tune engine. Chiti wanted to be paid in dollars which the buyer refused. The car is chassis #75033*015.
Best wishes,
Toy

 

[vsharp]

Okay, so that is clearer now. he didn't actually cut the block in half eek:!), he offset machined the alternating bore positions along the block. Assuming he still retained the 82mm stroke of the 1600, the bore would need to be 84.3mm, so yes the stock sleeve centreline distance would leave the sleeves too thin in the walls to achieve. Shuffling sideways to offset the narrow point and gain distance to increase the wall thickness (they must have made new sleeves) is quite a novel way of achieving it.
Offset dome pistons were quite a common thing for head to block variations, so a known quantity. The phasing of TDC in adjacent cylinders would also alter slightly and also some variation in the timing of valve opening. But most likely the increase in capacity offset any issues here because the figure of 180hp for 1830cc was a good number for the time. Plus the extra torque of the capacity in the light weight of the GTA body.
So this same RHD GTA became a wide body version later on, as in the start grid picture posted above?

 

[ToyDC145]

Hi There.
Let’s make something clear, and I apologise if I created confusion.
Basil did not cut the racing block, but another one that ARSA supplied him with, so he could see its innards.
They had to make new sleeves, with a bigger bore.
One point that I would like to know, but don’t, is the distance from the centre line.

It should be noted that the BDA engine is claimed to have more power, but the Alfa's superior suspension and 5-speed box compensated for it.
Yes, the car you see with the wide body, and I enclosed another photo here, is the original car that arrived in September 1966. The step nose gives it away.
Cheers.
Toy

 

[Sergio105]

What a great thread with so much interesting news! Thanks!