[ToyDC145]

I will give it a go and see if the bb lets me, may be too large

dbest.
Thank you for your post. I understand this is the car after it was sold to the UK, right? As with the one I have, its stay in Angola and Portugal needs to be translated.
Something to do in the near future.
Toy

 

[Takis]

Good morning fellow members
The following picture is from the Tour de France race entry #60 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm on 27th of September 1970, the car was driven by Dieudonee & Curien, they finished 14th overall.

The registration plate L26447 MI suggests (according to the book Alfa Romeo GTA by Maurizio Tabucchi page 243) that this corresponds to chassis AR 1531034.

But there is a contradiction, as chassis AR 1531034 competed at the 4 hours of Nurburgring race on 12th of July 1970, where the driver Herbert Schultze crashed the car onto a tree and sadly lost is life.

Going through the history of AR 1531034, after the crash at the Nurburgring the car returned to Autodelta where it was dismantled, its registration plate L26447 MI was cancelled on 28th of June 1971.
The chassis was sold, in 1978, to Tevar Srl in Palermo, then to Joaquim Nicodemos, then to Fernando Vaz Pinto before returning to Scuderia dell Portello where it was restored end offered for auction with Bonhams in 2015.

Assuming from the above facts, questions arise...
Which chassis is the Tour de France entry #60?
Why was it entered with registration plate L26447 MI?

Looking to the knowledge of all GTAm aficionados, any information is welcomed.
Thank you.
Takis.

 

[ToyDC145]

Hi Takis,
That is a sad piece of news you are giving us.
However, I have come across many times with different cars with similar VINs and number plates since the 8C 2900, till more recently with Alfettas.
I have pictures of one which competed in the Kyalami 9 hours in South Africa, with the same number plate used in a rallying Alfatta.

 

[alfasprinty]

Hi all,

In Belgium the number plate is more related to the owner than to the car....the owner keeps his number plate when a car is sold . Then he can cancel the number plate officially or use the same number plate number on his next car.

Rgds,

Thierry

 

[ToyDC145]

Interesting. Thank you.

 

[jimbbo]

According to Alleggerita, Register, 1531034 was registered with MI L26447 by Autodelta on July 20, 1970, after Schultze's unfortunate accident on July 12, 1970.

It also states that "the good parts [of 1531034] went to 1531042," and that on Sept 27, 1970, 1531042 was driven by Gianluigi Picchi in the 4 Hours of Jarama.

 

[Takis]

According to Alleggerita, Register, 1531034 was registered with MI L26447 by Autodelta on July 20, 1970, after Schultze's unfortunate accident on July 12, 1970.

It also states that "the good parts [of 1531034] went to 1531042," and that on Sept 27, 1970, 1531042 was driven by Gianluigi Picchi in the 4 Hours of Jarama.

1.Interesting, after the Nurburgring race, the car was registered!!!

2. So the Tour de France GTAm cannot be AR 1531042 since it raced at the same chronical period at Jarama.

Thank you jimbbo.

Hi Takis,
That is a sad piece of news you are giving us.
However, I have come across many times with different cars with similar VINs and number plates since the 8C 2900, till more recently with Alfettas.
I have pictures of one which competed in the Kyalami 9 hours in South Africa, with the same number plate used in a rallying Alfatta.

I am sorry ToyDC145 for the sad news, that is reality.
I am aware of chassis numbers changing between cars, for example AR 1531042 and AR 1531230 exchanged chassis numbers between them, proof can be found inside Alleggerita II.
As for the registration plate numbers I do not know what applied to Italy or other European countries regarding how the cars raced from one country to the other, that was the purpose of my question, I hope that a fellow member who has the knowledge can share it with us.

As alfasprinty informs us that in Belgium the registration number follows the owner not the car.

Thank you.
Takis.

 

[mp.ab]

Probably the answer can be found in this video where Gianni Tonti explained how Number Plates were used in Lancia Corse

 

[ToyDC145]

1.Interesting, after the Nurburgring race, the car was registered!!!

2. So the Tour de France GTAm cannot be AR 1531042 since it raced at the same chronical period at Jarama.

Thank you jimbbo.




I am sorry ToyDC145 for the sad news, that is reality.
I am aware of chassis numbers changing between cars, for example AR 1531042 and AR 1531230 exchanged chassis numbers between them, proof can be found inside Alleggerita II.
As for the registration plate numbers I do not know what applied to Italy or other European countries regarding how the cars raced from one country to the other, that was the purpose of my question, I hope that a fellow member who has the knowledge can share it with us.

As alfasprinty informs us that in Belgium the registration number follows the owner not the car.

Thank you.
Takis.

Thank you.

 

[vsharp]

Interesting thread. For those of us who are language challenged, can we have an English summary translation of the Gianni Tonti video please?
So the TDF car was not 1531034 as it was wrecked & dismantled, and probably not 1531042, as 1531042 car was racing at 4 Hours Jarama that weekend. So another 'borrowing' of the licence plate?

 

[roadsterswap]

Thanks for the update.

 

[mp.ab]

Interesting thread. For those of us who are language challenged, can we have an English summary translation of the Gianni Tonti video please?
So the TDF car was not 1531034 as it was wrecked & dismantled, and probably not 1531042, as 1531042 car was racing at 4 Hours Jarama that weekend. So another 'borrowing' of the licence plate?

Before Gianni Tonti joined Lancia Corse in 1967, no one really kept track of which chassis or engine belonged to which car. Tonti wanted to understand exactly what cars the team had.
He started by making a list of 14 cars, including each car’s license plate number, chassis number (on a plate attached to the body), and body number (stamped directly onto the car). But the list kept changing because the race cars were always being rebuilt, and some were just mules (test cars). If a race car was damaged, it was often replaced by a mule.
In some cases, at least four (as seen in the video) Lancia Corse cars had mismatched chassis and body numbers.
The reason for this was that the team’s admin staff didn’t have time to prepare the proper customs paperwork (called a Carnet de Passages en Douane) for each car. So, they reused existing documents by putting the matching license plate and chassis number plate onto a different car that had no paperwork.
Engines were also interchangeable. They were built to standard specs and could be installed into any car after being rebuilt.
To fix all this, Gianni Tonti spent four months creating a proper tracking system. So, each car had a detailed spec sheet, and he could follow the progress and setup of every chassis, engine, and gearbox.

 

[vsharp]

Thank you for that. I suspected that was likely the case, and certainly not limited to Lancia or even Italy as such. It seems it was quite common practice for race teams all over.....If your test driver crashes the car heavily testing a day or so before
that car is due to go to an event, logically you would bring in a spare or other body, then make it superficially match the already existing paperwork. What else could you do when time is a go or no go factor. If a major race or championship, I doubt that organizers would be too strict if it meant having or not having a star driver or team competing at their event.

 

[jimbbo]

Frame-grab from the YouTube video Tour De France Automobile 1970, showing the GTAm of Dieudonnée & Curien:

Link to the Video:

Tour De France Automobile 1970

 

[Takis]

Good evening fellow members,
I would like to share my thoughts after reading your anwsers.

Tour de France 19th to 27th of September 1970.
Five Alfa Romeo GTAms participated in this race.

1. entry #56 driven by Verrier/Vanson chassis AR 1531212 registration plate number L47391 MI
2. entry #57 driven by Barallier/Fayel chassis AR 1531230 registration plate number L47393 MI
3. entry #58 driven by Pianta/Alemani chassis AR 1530671 registration plate number K97829 MI
4. entry #59 driven by Darniche/Demange chassis AR 1531222 registration plate number L47392 MI
5. entry #60 driven by Dieudonee/Curien chassis unknown registration plate number L26447 MI

So all of the GTAms that participated had registration plate numbers, my guess is that it should be mandatory since the Tour de France took place on public roads also.

Some facts...

1. The unknown chassis cannot be AR 1531042, since it participated at the ETCC race at Jarama on 27th of September 1970.
2. We also know that it cannot be AR 1531034 since it crashed at Nurburgring on July 1970.
3. We are searching for a red GTAm with a yellow front right corner as the frame from the video is showing.

A logical thought...
Since the registration papers were for chassis AR 1531034, it would be convenient that the unknown chassis that participated is close to AR 1531034... meaning AR 1531039, AR 1531042, AR 1531068, they only differ in one or two digits. AR 1531042 is ruled out, so we are left with AR 1531039 (one digit difference and a registration plate L26448 MI which it received the same date as AR 1531034) and AR 1531068 (two digits difference).

Of course I stand corrected as this is digging into history, and everything must be proven.

A big thank you for your help.
Takis.

 

[aguirola]

Good evening fellow members,
I would like to share my thoughts after reading your anwsers.

Tour de France 19th to 27th of September 1970.
Five Alfa Romeo GTAms participated in this race.

1. entry #56 driven by Verrier/Vanson chassis AR 1531212 registration plate number L47391 MI
2. entry #57 driven by Barallier/Fayel chassis AR 1531230 registration plate number L47393 MI
3. entry #58 driven by Pianta/Alemani chassis AR 1530671 registration plate number K97829 MI
4. entry #59 driven by Darniche/Demange chassis AR 1531222 registration plate number L47392 MI
5. entry #60 driven by Dieudonee/Curien chassis unknown registration plate number L26447 MI

So all of the GTAms that participated had registration plate numbers, my guess is that it should be mandatory since the Tour de France took place on public roads also.

Some facts...

1. The unknown chassis cannot be AR 1531042, since it participated at the ETCC race at Jarama on 27th of September 1970.
2. We also know that it cannot be AR 1531034 since it crashed at Nurburgring on July 1970.
3. We are searching for a red GTAm with a yellow front right corner as the frame from the video is showing.

A logical thought...
Since the registration papers were for chassis AR 1531034, it would be convenient that the unknown chassis that participated is close to AR 1531034... meaning AR 1531039, AR 1531042, AR 1531068, they only differ in one or two digits. AR 1531042 is ruled out, so we are left with AR 1531039 (one digit difference and a registration plate L26448 MI which it received the same date as AR 1531034) and AR 1531068 (two digits difference).

Of course I stand corrected as this is digging into history, and everything must be proven.

A big thank you for your help.
Takis.

hello Takis, AR 1532307, never had license plates. How that was done in the day I don’t know.
The owner, Juncadella, told me that he had a friend that would drive it from Italy to Spain on a trailer for him to race, albeit it was only for a year, then it was exported to El Salvador.
Funny businesses in those days. Very creative. 😁

So at least this car, no license plate.
And, it still has no license plates, as being a race car, in El Salvador there’s no law that requires a race car to have license plates

Regards, Alberto

 

[vsharp]

Hi Alberto,
Same here. For closed track races only, road registration with a license plate would not be needed, but for any event run on or partially on public roads like rally/targa type events then the licensing would be needed. Certainly the TDF event was this type, some road 'stages' and also visits to various race tracks along the route for timed circuit laps.

 

[PSk]

Ferrari used to swap chassis number tags around so surely everybody swapped number plates around, don't even need a welder
Pete

 

[mp.ab]

Frame-grab from the YouTube video Tour De France Automobile 1970, showing the GTAm of Dieudonnée & Curien:

View attachment 1899991

Link to the Video:

Tour De France Automobile 1970

In the better quality

 

[jimbbo]

And another from the AlfaPower website (with no details re photo date or location):