[richards]

Hi Olaf

Congratulations on this Herculean effort....many thanks!

It will take time to digest.....

Richard

 

[gtacorsa]

Hi Olaf,

I counted much more than the produced 40 cars, what will be the final count? More than 300?

regards

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Olaf,

I counted much more than the produced 40 cars, what will be the final count? More than 300?

regards

Did you read the comments behind the chassisnumbers or did you count the number of chassis mentioned, gtacorsa? It is not a Yes or No answer in some of the cases. 😆

About 50 chassisnumbers are mentioned in total, about 40 cars were "produced", allthough with the 1750 GTAm "production" isn't exactly the right term. 1750 GTAm's weren't made like the 1600 GTA or GTA 1300 Junior.

For example;

• Were they converted at Autodelta or locally with Autodelta and other parts?
• Built with new 1750 GTV's (taken of the production line) as the startingpoint or with existing 1750 GTV's?
• Built with the EU (105.44) or the US (105.51) type as a startingpoint?
• Etc.

Lots of details that matter. A couple of chassis are mentioned, because they turn up in a chassisnumber list with mistakes. Not mentioning them, will lead to new discussions. See the "Typo" numbers.
So that is why it takes some text. 😉

Ciao, Olaf 👌🍀

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Dear Takis and members,

Continued from post #499;

So we have the present "Castrol" car with chassisnumber # 1532099.
That chassisnumber has not been linked to chassisnumber of the Motor Hellas 1971 Lakis Fotiadis 1750 GTAm yet.
So we can't verify if # 1532099 is the 1971 Fotiadis 1750 GTAm.

Pictures of (the engine bay of) # 1532099 pre-restoration and pictures of the engine bay of the 1971 Fotiades car, would give a clue or solve the question.

And there are spec's, that can be seen under the bonnet, that would identify a 1750 GTAm as a car built by Autodelta. Another option could be that the car was built locally by Motor Hellas in Greece.

Ciao, Olaf 👌🍀

P.S. Latest wrap up of chassisnumbers in post # 500.

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello members,

Reading through other threads, I saw this.
A history of the homologation, development and racing of the 1750 GTAm in the late 1960's/early 1970's.

Alfetta GTAM 1974

Any information what so ever on the car listed above would be gratefully appreciated. Thankyou very much D@vid....

www.alfabb.com

Ciao, Olaf

 

[GTV6SA]

Some more .....
Takis.

Blue GTAm is Fabio Sordi"s car

 

[GTV6SA]

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Thanks for showing this car, GTV6SA.

This "1968 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm" with chassisnumber #1350034 is an interesting car. A first series type 105.44 European 1750 GTV from 1968. It is from the Tavoletti collection, which was broken up after Mr. Tavoletti died. Lane Louie and others noticed this car before. Lane has spoken to Mr. Tavoletti multiple times.

The car has a RIAR plate with number #244. RIAR plates (Registro Italiano Alfa Romeo) can be awarded for (the authenticity of) an entire car or for a part of that car. For example for an authentic and special Autodelta engine.

# 1350034 was for sale at the Coys auction in 2014 and at the RM auction in 2016. In 2016 for an estimate between 225.000 and 275.000 UK Pounds. Your picture shows the price in Euro's. It didn't sell.
In one of the auction texts, it says that the engine in the car is 1779cc. That sounds strange for a Testa Stretta (narrow cylinder head) Autodelta 1750 GTAm engine. Such an engine would usually have had a bore & stroke of 84.5 x 88.5 giving a capacity of 1985cc.
Maybe even 84.6 x 88.5 giving 1990cc.
1779cc is the capacity of the normal road going engine, with a wide cylinder head and a bore & stroke of 80.0 x 88.5. A mistake in the text?

Chassisnumber #1350034 didn't turn up in any of the books on the 1750 / 2000 GTAm's. Neither in "Alleggerita" edition I (1994 by Adriaensens) or edition II (2012 by Adriaensens, Dasse & Übelher) nor in the "Alfa Romeo GTA" book (1994 by Tabucchi). These mentioned books are the benchmark when talking 1750 / 2000 GTAm.

#1350034 had been on display at the Tavoletti museum since the early 1980's. The car has been restored by Turbo Motor (Ceasano Maderno) and was completed in May of 1986. The airbox design on this car is typical Turbo Motor.
When was the Autodelta engine installed in this chassis? In 1986 or earlier? And where and by whom? When exactly was this GTV converted to a GTAm style car? And where and by whom?
The Autodelta engine shown, produced 210 hp (at 8500 rpm?) at a (dyno?) test in February of 1987. The car has been shown at various events after the restoration. All this according to the text. It looks nice! My opinion. But a genuine 1750 GTAm built by Autodelta in-period? Or a GTAm built by an importer, dealer or tuner in-period? I doubt that very much.

Can someone else please double check plate RIAR #244 and verify what it was awarded for? The whole car or "Engine only"? It will give more insight into what this car could be. Thank you!

1968 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm | London 2016 | RM Sotheby's

1968 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm for sale at RM Sotheby's London

rmsothebys.com

There was another car from the Tavoletti collection, that has been discussed here.
It was sold as an "GTAM prototype" by the auction company Coys in 2014. It had a RIAR plate as well. RIAR plate #258. For "engine only".
The plate was awarded for the 1500cc 16V fuelinjected "Marino 91" engine, developed by Autodelta in 1970. To be used in powerboat racing. This specific engine was, instead of being mounted in a powerboat, mounted in a 1964 Giulia Sprint GT with chassisnumber # AR603142 and with a widened body.
The car was sold for Euro 87000,- at the MECC in 2014. The auction house text with the title "GTAm prototype" didn't represent the true nature of the car, in my opinion. Read the thread on that car and make up your own mind.
And in the thread on the "Engine developments at Autodelta in the 1960's and 1970's", you can read about the different engines developed for powerboat racing.

Engine developments at Autodelta in the 1960's and...

Dear members, We discussed the 1500cc 16valve fuelinjection engine in AR 603142 in another thread. I decided to make a list of all the engine variants I could find. Here is a list with what I could find. Please add information and/or comment on this list. Developments at Autodelta: Source...

www.alfabb.com

As always in these cases, the devil is in the detail. Take care when you are buying a historic Alfa Romeo. From a private person, from a company or an auction house. Do your homework or let the research be done for you.

GTAm Prototype

Hi All, No relation to this car but can someone tell me more regarding the following Alfa: Alfa GTAm Prototype Best, Rodrick

www.alfabb.com

Ciao, Olaf 👌🍀

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

** Edited **
Extra information.

Dear members,

Tonight (April the 22nd of 2023), a "1971 - Alfa Romeo 1750 GTAm" that was advertised, was brought to my attention. Thank you Mitsos for noticing this car. The link is added at the bottom of the post.

The add says and I Quote:
"Extremely rare and original GTAm - Year 1971.
Prepared by Alfacar in period.
Completely restored - Alfa Romeo Certificate of Origin." Unquote.

The chassis number that I see in the pictures is #1532024. The chassis number isn't mentioned in the advertisement, you have to ask the seller for details. Interesting strategy. But an enlarged picture of the engine bay showed the number nonetheless. Check it in the pictures in the link at the bottom of this post. I can't show a picture because the format doesn't permit me publishing it here.

#1532024 does correspond with a late 1970/early 1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 GTV US, type 105.51. Sold to Alfa Romeo Newark on the 1st of March 1971, in Hawthorn white with a black skai interior, according to my latest information. I will double check that.

Chassisnumber #1532024 was mentioned before, on the 6th of May 2010, by our member Clemens in post #98 of this thread. With comments by GTV6SA & Berlinista in the following posts. Check out their feedback.

This red car is now located in Italy. The name on the side windows reads A. Baschwitz. The A. stands for Alberto and for Alesandro. These Spanish drivers used to race this car together and were mentioned in results like the AvD Historic Marathon of 07-07-2007.
The car has some interesting features, such as a Testa Stretta engine with fuelinjection. The dashboard of #1532024 doesn't make sense to me, as does other things. The dash looks like a 1600 GTA/GTA 1300 Junior version.

Chassis number #1352024 didn't turn up in any of the books on the 1750 / 2000 GTAm's. Neither in "Alleggerita" edition I (1994 by Adriaensens) or edition II (2012 by Adriaensens, Dasse & Übelher) nor in the "Alfa Romeo GTA" book (1994 by Tabucchi). These mentioned books are the benchmark when talking 1750 / 2000 GTAm.

The "Alfa Romeo Certificate of Origin" is supplied by Alfa Romeo on the basis of the chassisnumber. I am curious as to what that certificate exactly says. No picture of this specific Certificate is to be seen. Why not? Interesting!
Here you can see what the procedure is, to get such a certificate.

Alfa Romeo Certificate of Origin

Visit the official website to request an Alfa Romeo certificate of origin for your classic car using the chassis number and discover its history.

www.fcaheritage.com

I would have questions about #1532024. Such as this one; how can this car have been prepared by Alfacar "in-period" (that is early 1970's), when Alfacar was created in 2009?
Thank you Max for checking this.
Furthermore, why not show the Certificate that is mentioned as being present? That would create more credibility. Which any 1750 GTAm deserves.

I personally never came across a company called Alfacar, that prepared, tuned or built 1750 GTAm's back in the 1970's. Is there somebody else who did?

Stato	Attiva
Nome completo	Alfa Car Di Carrabba Luca
Codice ATECO	45.20.1: Riparazioni meccaniche di autoveicoli
P.IVA
Data di costituzione	05 Marzo 2009
Regione	Piemonte

Here you can see further products by Alfacar. Such as a GTA 1300 ENGINE 16 VALVES, AlfaCar Unfortunately you have to register and log in on Alfacar, to see the prices of these parts. As said, that is a strategy.

So from a timeline perspective, the history of #1532024 doesn't seem to add up. But maybe I am wrong and pieces of the puzzle are missing? Or the text for this car is faulty? To be continued!

As always in these cases, the devil is in the detail. Take care when you are buying a historic Alfa Romeo. From a private person, from a company or an auction house. Do your homework or let the research be done for you. And even then, some questions could remain without an answer.

Ciao, Olaf 👌 🍀

1971 Alfa Romeo 1750 - GTAM

Extremely rare and original GTAM - Year 1971 Prepared by Alfacar in period - Completely restored Alfa Romeo Certificate of Origin

www.classicdriver.com

 

[GTV6SA]

GTAm's didn't have balance bars,nor " black plastic - painted?" inlet trumpets. This looks like a re-pro head cam ,covers too smooth for magnesium of the period ,1600 dash, slave cylinder mounted on fender panel? IMHO.

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

GTAm's didn't have balance bars,nor " black plastic - painted?" inlet trumpets. This looks like a re-pro head cam ,covers too smooth for magnesium of the period ,1600 dash, slave cylinder mounted on fender panel? IMHO.

That underpins the timeline questions of the car. Thank you GTV6SA. A detail is the smooth cylinderhead on this car. I will try to find a (copyright free) picture of in period cylinderhead cover to show your remark.

Olaf 👌🍀

 

[GTV6SA]

GTAm original magnesium cam cover

 

[PSk]

The thing about these old race cars is why would the development of them as an effective competition car just stop?

Remember there was a period when these cars were just older race cars, still racing and NOT historic cars yet.

So I personally don't have an issue with a GTA or GTAm having a brake balance bar and other non original things IF you can trace the modification to its racing life and NOT a recent change when all these cars should now be treated as historic cars.

Take David Pipers Ferrari 250LM, far more developed than any other 250LM ...
Pete

 

[GTV6SA]

In terms of "Originality" these weren't available during that period, like dry sumps in Touring car Masters! The definition in the add says "original"! The balance bar definitely was not original during that era!If it was an " evocation/ replica" - no problem but trying to pass it off as original?likewise the remote slave cylinder mounted on the inner guard.Below is photo of " original engine bay of Museums GTAm" magnesium cam covers were painted red to prevent " oxidisation/corrosion of magnesium. This head was used to make the " die" by Ferrari foundry to cast a new GTAm head mentioned elsewhere in one of the forums. I

 

[GTV6SA]

Photo of original fuel tank set-up on " original GTAm" - archive photos

 

[PSk]

Agree

Pete

 

[martinue]

The Certificato d'Origine states that vehicle 1532024 was built in 1971 and sold to the USA. I first noticed the GTAm offered by Auto Classic in 2009 when it was offered by Autoieri. It has a questionably stamped VIN and body and parts do not quite match. Not enough to include it in our book. Auto Classic has been offering it since 2018.

But there is a second story with a GTAm and the same VIN: In the spring of 1973, Italian-Canadian Frank Marino purchased a GTAm "ex Drago" through Autodelta, with lightweight doors and parts. He raced it until 19740929 when he crashed it into a wall at the Sanair Enduro. Marino then bought a new body shell from the second series and converted all usable parts. He then drove this car from 1975 to 1977. Marino sold it in Canada in 1989, after which it was sold to the USA. In 2018 a Frenchman bought it from this third owner and exported it. The Frenchman started a restoration and found that the original Marino car was 1532024.

So far so good. As an Autodelta affiliated driver/owner of a GTAm named Drago, the only possible candidate is Yugoslav Drago Regvart. He drove a white GTAm with lightweight doors in 1971, then a white and red GTAm with standard doors until 19730325 and a red GTAm in 1974, again with standard doors. 1532024 was originally delivered in white. Marino's first GTAm was delivered in April 1973.

In fact, Regvart's white GTAm was a Series 2 car with the wide taillights, while Marino's first GTAm was a Series 1 car with the small taillights. So the country doesn't fit for Regvart's first car, the body doesn't for Marino's first car.

Edit: the supposed photo of the rear of Marino's GTAm shows indeed the 1973 Sebring n. 33 GTJ of Devis/Melville/Beatty in Raceco Coral Cabels livery. I do not have a photo of the rear of Marino's original car.

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Martin,

Thank you for your answer!
That is were my info on the car (sold to Alfa Romeo Newark on the 1st of March 1971, in Hawthorn white with a black skai interior), came from.

I didn't have time to check yet as yesterday we watched the WEC race at Spa Francorchamps live at the track. Awake at 04.00 hours to meet up woth the guys I went with and back home at 00.10 hours yesterday evening.

What a race! Glad no one was injured in the crashes! But that is another story.

Ciao, Olaf 👌🍀

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

The thing about these old race cars is why would the development of them as an effective competition car just stop?

Remember there was a period when these cars were just older race cars, still racing and NOT historic cars yet.

So I personally don't have an issue with a GTA or GTAm having a brake balance bar and other non original things IF you can trace the modification to its racing life and NOT a recent change when all these cars should now be treated as historic cars.

Take David Pipers Ferrari 250LM, far more developed than any other 250LM ...
Pete

Hello Pete,

I dare to be different here. With cars being offered at serious prices, history is key. So if the modifications and parts can be traced back to being part of the car at some stage, that is okay with me.

Like a GTAm with a 16V engine, that was installed when the car started to be used as a hillclimb car. #1530841 to be exact.

But when modifications are not in-period and can't be traced back to the history of a specific car, or isn't a typical modification for these cars, it gets borderline and beyond for me.
Especially when a car is called "original".

And there are multiple cases of that happening. As in general in the classic car world. That is a pity and in the end, it will be harmfull for aficionado's of classic cars.
That is my view on this matter.

Ciao, Olaf

 

[PSk]

Hello Pete,

I dare to be different here. With cars being offered at serious prices, history is key. So if modifications and parts that can be traced back and so being part of the car, that is okay for me.
Like the GTAm with a 16V engine, that was installed when the car started to be used as a hillclimb car.

But when modifications are not in-period and can't be traced back to the history of the car and the car is offered as an original, it gets borderline and beyond for me. And there are multiple cases of that happening. As in general in the classic car world. That is a pity and in end, not good for aficionado's of classic cars.
That is my view on this matter.

Ciao, Olaf

I do agree. I had not realised this car was advertised with the word "original" in the ad. If modifications are non in-period it should declare that, etc.
Pete