[Zagato_Olaf]

The number #24 Zandvoort 1970 car had plate number #L18548 MI wich should be chassis AR #1530776 built in October 1969. I am not sure if AR #1531068 was a works car. It could have been a customer car modified by Autodelta but without more information its hard to tell.

** Edited **

Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2012-Chicago March 2012

Hello Tom, Vince, Ronny and others,

The picture of GTAm #25 from Zandvoort dates from the Zandvoort Trophy, held at the 30th of August 1970. Source is: Zandvoort Trophy 1970 - Car Data & Information - Racing Sports Cars
It means that all chassisnumbers built post 30/08/1970 are impossible for GTAm number #25. All GTAm´s up to chassisnumber #1531231 were built before the 30th of August 1970. The car was an Autodelta works entry accoording to the entrylist. Source is: http://www.racingsportscars.com/covers/_Zandvoort-1970-08-30e.jpg

If we follow Maurizio Tabucchi´s list of GTAm´s built by Autodelta as works cars we see a couple of groups of cars produced.

First group:
#1530671 built on the 1st of September 1969
#1530776 built on the 29th of October 1969
#1530782 built on the 31st of December 1969

Second group:
#1530834
#1530838
#1630840
#1530841
#1530848
#1530849 built on the 27th of January 1970
#1530879 built on the 08th of January 1970
#1530896 built on the 28th of January 1970
#1530938 built on the 26th of January 1970
#1530952 built on the 26th of January 1970

Third group:
#1531034 built on the 11th of February 1970
#1531039 built on the 11th of February 1970
#1531042 built on the 16th of February 1970
#1531068 built on the 24th of February 1970
#1531210 built on the ???? of February 1970
#1531222 built on the 20th of February 1970
#1531230 built on the 30th of May 1970
#1531231 built on the 26th of May 1970

A further group of cars was produced in 1971.

#5130776 is ruled out by Tom because that car ran as startnumber #24 in the same race.
#1530952 is impossible too, because that car had a different colour at that moment in time (Beige Cava).
#1530849 for the same reason (Beige Cava).

#1530848 (which was not mentioned by Maurizio Tabucchi but was mentioned by Tony Adriaensens) with licenseplate 93-42-MN can be ruled out too because that ran in the same race too with Rob Slotemaker.

Ciao, Olaf

 

[vsharp]

Hi Olaf,
#1531068 was built on 24 Feb 1970, and reciept for sale to Foley 15 December '70.
So sometime between these dates, #1531068 was used/worn out and placed in the Museum storage area, from where Foley aquired it.
Does your inclusion of #1531068 in the Tabucci list suggest that this number is actually mentioned by Tabucci somewhere?
Rgs, Vince.

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Olaf,
#1531068 was built on 24 Feb 1970, and reciept for sale to Foley 15 December '70.
So sometime between these dates, #1531068 was used/worn out and placed in the Museum storage area, from where Foley aquired it.
Does your inclusion of #1531068 in the Tabucci list suggest that this number is actually mentioned by Tabucci somewhere?
Rgs, Vince.

Hello Vince,

Thanks for the info. Sorry, Tabucchi did not mention 1531068 in his list. My mistake.
But then again, Adriaensens and Tabucchi mentioned a lot of chassisnumbers that the other did not. So combining information from the two and other sources seems to be the way to go.
Vince, did Marco Fazio mention the first owner of the car when supplying you with the information on your chassis #1531068? Some of the chassisnumbers mention Autodelta as the first owner. That is how Tabucchi compiled his list if my memory serves me correct. Adriansens went a different way in finding out which 1750 GTV's were transformed into GTAm's.

Ciao, Olaf

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Vince & Tom,

Tom, the fact that #25 has the aluminium GTA style doors indeed makes it different from most GTAm's. I checked and most GTAm's kept the GTV 1750 style doors. Also early ones.
So I will go through my pictures for a red GTAm with GTA style doors and side indicator lights high on the front wings. Could you publish the Spa picture that you were talking about?

Vince, as far as doors are concerned, the same goes for your #1531068. It also has the GTA style doors. But in Australia, it doesn't carry side indicator lights. Do you know if the indicator lights were left out when the car was refurbished in Australia?

Ciao, Olaf

 

[F1 Tommy]

Hello Vince & Tom,

Tom, the fact that #25 has the aluminium GTA style doors indeed makes it different from most GTAm's. I checked and most GTAm's kept the GTV 1750 style doors. Also early ones.
So I will go through my pictures for a red GTAm with GTA style doors and side indicator lights high on the front wings. Could you publish the Spa picture that you were talking about?

Ciao, Olaf

It looks like most of the cars had indicator lights around that same area, so I was wrong. The other thing I have noticed is that Autodelta seemed to switch from alloy GTA doors to regular doors alot. Not sure if the cars went over or under the weight limit causing them to change them back. This really is going to be tricky. I also have a feeling there are less real "works" cars then we think with closer to 10 or 12, the rest being built for customers by Autodelta. Some of the drivers seem to have used the same car over and over again. Remember Autodelta at the most entered 4 GTAM's at any given race, and many were the same cars/drivers over and over again.

 

[vsharp]

Hello Vince & Tom,

Tom, the fact that #25 has the aluminium GTA style doors indeed makes it different from most GTAm's. I checked and most GTAm's kept the GTV 1750 style doors. Also early ones.
So I will go through my pictures for a red GTAm with GTA style doors and side indicator lights high on the front wings. Could you publish the Spa picture that you were talking about?

Vince, as far as doors are concerned, the same goes for your #1531068. It also has the GTA style doors. But in Australia, it doesn't carry side indicator lights. Do you know if the indicator lights were left out when the car was refurbished in Australia?

Ciao, Olaf

Hi Olaf,
I would think that the side lights were left out when refurbished here, the rivets were filled over as well. I am only assuming about the lights, because so far I've never been able to find a photo of the car exactly as it arrived here. It was so tatty nobody bothered to take pictures so I'm told.
Yes it always had GTA doors, which are in surprisingly excellent condition considering how fragile the alloy is.
Vince.

 

[AlfaRonny]

Vince, was the car so battered due to extensive use in racing / testing?
Or is is possible it was damaged during transport from Italy to Australia.
Did it come by plane or by boat ?
Working in the port of Antwerp, I've seen ships come in after a little storm on sea, and you wouldn't believe how strong the forces of nature sometimes can be, and what damage it can do to the cargo.
Nowadays cars are being "lashed" in a much better way than in the 70's.
If this could be the reason the damage happened, maybe an insurance company might have pictures??
Ronny

 

[vsharp]

Vince, was the car so battered due to extensive use in racing / testing?
Or is is possible it was damaged during transport from Italy to Australia.
Did it come by plane or by boat ?
Working in the port of Antwerp, I've seen ships come in after a little storm on sea, and you wouldn't believe how strong the forces of nature sometimes can be, and what damage it can do to the cargo.
Nowadays cars are being "lashed" in a much better way than in the 70's.
If this could be the reason the damage happened, maybe an insurance company might have pictures??
Ronny

Hi Ronny, #1531068 was not damaged as such, just badley stone chipped and sandblasted from use, plus remenants of old stickers. Also the painting and fit of the glassfibre parts was very.......ordinary, shall we say. Foley only ever saw it in the dark Museum storage basement, wedged between other cars, so didn't realize it was used. This was supposed to be a brand new car from Autodelta, and sponsors had paid the money for a new car. Foley was previously racing a Porsche 911 and it was very well turned out in the sponsor Chesterfield Filters colors, so when this GTAm arrived......it was not quite what they expected!
Vince.

 

[F1 Tommy]

Another photo. I hope I did not upset anyone with my comment of 10-12 cars. I just have a feeling we are overcounting the actual Autodelta works GTAM's as the drivers seemed to use their favorite cars almost all the time.

Spa 1972.

Back to the numbers!!

Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2012-Chicago March 2012

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Another photo. I hope I did not upset anyone with my comment of 10-12 cars. I just have a feeling we are overcounting the actual Autodelta works GTAM's as the drivers seemed to use their favorite cars almost all the time.

Spa 1972.

Back to the numbers!!

Tom Tanner/Scale Designs/Ferrari Expo 2012-Chicago March 2012

Hello Tom,

No offence taken. Everybody is entitled to his or her view and opinion. Looking at the updated "Tabucchi" list posted in post #192, we count 15 cars that had Autodelta as their first owner. In the book "Alfa Romeo GTA" by Maurizio Tabucchi, 14 cars have Autodelta as the first owner. The difference is the addition of chassisnumber #1531222.

If you define an Autodelta "works" car as a car that was initially used by the Autodelta team, we can start counting. But be advised because Adriaensens mentioned Autodelta Works Cars #1530834 and #1531230 that Tabucchi does not. We see cars with the same licenseplate being used by Autodelta during several seasons. And if we define every other car as a customer car, things are sort of clear.

But do we know if and how many cars with a "works" configuration, were delivered to teams like Jolly Club? If so, do we count those as "works" or as customer cars?
And what about the chassisnumbers that Adriaensens mentioned in his book "Alleggerita" for example Alfa Romeo Benelux and other teams? Customers could order a car from Alfa Romeo and as such were the first owner. They could then send the car to Autodelta themselves to have it altered to a GTAm. Autodelta will not show up as the first owner on the information that is present at the Documentazione Storico. These cars could have the full options as listed in this thread and as such be a "works" car. How do we define these?
And what about the chassis #1531068 that went to Australia? It was in a very used state when it arrived in Australia. Was it used by Autodelta in the 1970 season? Autodelta was mentioned as the first owner.

In the picture we see #1530952 (MI L27247) and #1530782 (MI L12787). That is, if the licenseplates stayed with one car. Adriaensens says so. At the moment, I think that is the case but I do not have 100% proof.

Ciao, Olaf

 

[TOTO70_0]

@Olaf, do not believe everything to be true what is written, talking to the people who where involved in the period might bring you to the conclusion that we will never find out what is true or not.
i.e.
we owned once a Porsche 3.0 RSR which we bought from the man who raced it for many times and had owned the car since nearly new, when we had the car we found out that the skin of the car was to thick and found out that the car was crashed in its first race badly and they couldn`t wait for the lightened body of a RSR and took a stock body.

And having talked to persons who raced in period with Alfa`s. This might have happened many times with Alfa`s. Car crashed badly so all parts where swapped to an other body , so a different chassisnumber became a then the crashed car.

 

[vsharp]

Hello Tom,

No offence taken. Everybody is entitled to his or her view and opinion. Looking at the updated "Tabucchi" list posted in post #192, we count 15 cars that had Autodelta as their first owner. In the book "Alfa Romeo GTA" by Maurizio Tabucchi, 14 cars have Autodelta as the first owner. The difference is the addition of chassisnumber #1531222.

If you define an Autodelta "works" car as a car that was initially used by the Autodelta team, we can start counting. But be advised because Adriaensens mentioned Autodelta Works Cars #1530834 and #1531230 that Tabucchi does not. We see cars with the same licenseplate being used by Autodelta during several seasons. And if we define every other car as a customer car, things are sort of clear.

But do we know if and how many cars with a "works" configuration, were delivered to teams like Jolly Club? If so, do we count those as "works" or as customer cars?
And what about the chassisnumbers that Adriaensens mentioned in his book "Alleggerita" for example Alfa Romeo Benelux and other teams? Customers could order a car from Alfa Romeo and as such were the first owner. They could then send the car to Autodelta themselves to have it altered to a GTAm. Autodelta will not show up as the first owner on the information that is present at the Documentazione Storico. These cars could have the full options as listed in this thread and as such be a "works" car. How do we define these?
And what about the chassis #1531068 that went to Australia? It was in a very used state when it arrived in Australia. Was it used by Autodelta in the 1970 season? Autodelta was mentioned as the first owner.

In the picture we see #1530952 (MI L27247) and #1530782 (MI L12787). That is, if the licenseplates stayed with one car. Adriaensens says so. At the moment, I think that is the case but I do not have 100% proof.

Ciao, Olaf

Hi Olaf, just to clarify a point with #1531068; this GTAm was ordered from Autodelta via Alfa Romeo works. Foley's Alfa dealership in Sydney is listed as first owner on 15 December '70. This is long after it's production-line date (24 Feb '70) and after its conversion to GTAm spec and being worn out. I have not seen on paper Autodelta listed as the first owner. To some extent it is assumed that it was worn out by Alfa Romeo works or Autodelta. Perhaps the fact that it came from the Museum storage with no prior owner recorded suggests that it was used in factory related purposes, so no record of sale appeared until Foley late in the year.
There is no evidence so far to suggest that it was an official Autodelta team race car, but I have seen mention of "recce/practice mules" used for Targa and similar. Maybe this is more likely where it came from. I can't imagine Autodelta wearing out the official touringcar championship race team cars for other events.
If anybody has any contacts for '70-71 period A/delta mechanics who might be able to remember anything, please post here!
regards, Vince.

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hello Vince,

Thanks for the additional info. The state the car was in when Foley received it suggests that it could have been used either in races, as a training car or as a Muletto. Would be nice to find out. Maybe Elivra Ruocco, the former head of the Documentazione Storico can shed more light on this case?

Ciao, Olaf

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Point taken

@Olaf, do not believe everything to be true what is written, talking to the people who where involved in the period might bring you to the conclusion that we will never find out what is true or not.
i.e.
we owned once a Porsche 3.0 RSR which we bought from the man who raced it for many times and had owned the car since nearly new, when we had the car we found out that the skin of the car was to thick and found out that the car was crashed in its first race badly and they couldn`t wait for the lightened body of a RSR and took a stock body.

And having talked to persons who raced in period with Alfa`s. This might have happened many times with Alfa`s. Car crashed badly so all parts where swapped to an other body , so a different chassisnumber became a then the crashed car.

Hello TOTO,

Point taken!

Ciao, Olaf

 

[AlfaRonny]

1971 JARAMA:

Looking at the stickers it's probably the same car as this one:

One of the other Spanish entries has a black hood on his white car:

Used very often in rallies, the (matte) black against the sunlight.
So maybe this is the same car: (although the indicators are not in the same spot, but this can be explained by the fact Pianta hit a truck in the Monte, so they probably changed the entire front)

Barrios still drove his red GTAm in early september @ Alcaniz, so the second white car is probably Juncadella's. (spanish stripes on the hood)

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Thanks for the pictures!

Hello AlfaRonny,

Thanks for the pictures and the information!

MI M48973 is #1532022 if my information is correct.
MI K97829 is an early GTAM but the chassisnumber isn´t 100% clear to me yet.
Because the rallycar used the Autodelta homologated plastic front bumper, they had to relocate the front indicator lights.
Other rallycars with bumpers used cutouts to leave the indicators in the original place.

Ciao! Olaf

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Interesting GTAm´s

Hello members,

Some interesting GTAm's from the seventies!
Pittini and Roselli in car number #26 at Monza in 1972.

Photograph source: Touring Car Racing History / Furio

Ciao, Olaf

 

[aguirola]

1971 JARAMA:....

One of the other Spanish entries has a black hood on his white car:
http://i460.photobucket.com/albums/qq321/alfaronny/

Barrios still drove his red GTAm in early september @ Alcaniz, so the second white car is probably Juncadella's. (spanish stripes on the hood)[/QUOTE]

Alfa Ronny, If the white one is Juncadella' car, then it is the one I own, #1532307.
Any other photos? I would really like to find out the license plate that belongs to it, possibly it is the one shown?
Thank you for the great photos!
Regards, Alberto

 

[Zagato_Olaf]

Another picture of the Juncadella car

Alfa Ronny, If the white one is Juncadella' car, then it is the one I own, #1532307.
Any other photos? I would really like to find out the license plate that belongs to it, possibly it is the one shown?
Thank you for the great photos!
Regards, Alberto

Hello Alberto,

Another picture op the GTAm´s with Barrios in the #8 and Juncadella in the #6 car at Montjuich in 1971.
Source is Alfistas.com - Todo sobre Alfa Romeo

Ciao, Olaf

 

[aguirola]

Gracias Olaf,
I just became a member of Alfistas.com.
Hopefully I will be able to track down Juncadella.
Do you think the license plate from Ronny's photo, is the same car?
Regards, Alberto