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Discussion starter · #21 ·
I would say the GFC has partly contributed to the situation if not all of it with the 105 market taking off as a result of being pulled up itself. I guess none of us really understands how the world as a collective makes choices and it has now bestowed on the 105 GT/GTV step nose (possibly due to appearance and style which is generally admired, and racing heritage), to be a 'cool thing'. Because of the varied and changing connotations of cool, as well as its subjective nature it may change, but I doubt it! A 'cool thing' tends to be put into the luxury class! when was the last time you thought a vintage Rolex watch was 'not' cool? So prices will keep going up mostly, probably dependent on how many pristine show room conditions ones are available and really time to carry out a restorations, is in the 4+ years. The survival rates of the step nose cars I guess is 1 to 3 % of production, which puts the world total at about 2000 max, and say as a guess 500 are fully restored. My 67 GT Veloce will make it 501 in about 6 months, back to white original, but then again I should paint it light blue metallic and give it away as a wedding gift, like the recent electric powered light blue 1968 E-Type Jaguar.

Summary in economic lingo. The demand curve has shifted to the right from D1 to D2 due to Govt's around the world borrowing billions of dollars/Euros to gift to large corporations to prop them up for the sake of their country. This once in a lifetime windfall was spent by the corporations on a variety of things and allot on various luxury goods shifting the demand curve to the right D1 to D2. So the price went up and the quantity went up for luxury goods. The flow on effect was other hi-end commodities were sought and people all long the chain got something, so cashed up after selling your Italian classic for 400k, why not buy a GTA mmm too dear and a tightly held market what about the GT Sprint or GT Veloce step nose. The reality is the old supply curve S1 is fixed in the short term. Short term is defined by how long it takes to restore a car (4 years) and how many restored cars are on the market straight after they are finished? not many unless it is a business doing it! time and supply is limited and demand is high.

So people may try and convince me there are allot of 105 step nose cars out there and the supply curve will shift to the right S1 to S2 and prices will fall, I doubt this. If a car is in storage and has been up to now and it is not costing you too much to keep it there, should you sell it now or in a few years time? given prices have spiked in the last 2-3 years now would be the time to sell it as some owners of very rusty cars who have no use for them have! If the owners of the better cars may decide to keep their car, reducing quantity supplied so just when you expecting supply to move to the right S1 to S2, it could move to the left of S1 to S3 (the effect of passing on the car to younger family members in preference to the market), driving up the prices even more for better cars as you go up the demand curve D2.
I doubt there are thousands of 105 step nose cars in barns around the world unaccounted for, there may be around 50 or less of the last of the rusty hulks or half dozen daily drivers at best, you know car hunters stuff, we sit at the edge of our seat and watch it. Australia's import rules make it uneconomic to bring a car into the country now so virtually a closed gate. Not all houses/apartments come with a garages in Europe. Storage cost for a car are huge if you have to pay for it. You would be considered lucky if you had one under cover car park in one of the cities in Europe. Businesses take you goods once you default of on storage payment, you have seen the shows, so you really need to buy your garage spot in Europe.

Around the world how many cars do you know of that were chopped up to fix others or for scrap in your area?. When supply of replacement panels ran out as the factory was only expecting the car to survive 12 years after. So with parts panels scattered around the world you just or could not get them pre internet days, so what were people to do? You must of heard of 'Buy two cars, and fix one good one, then throw chop up the other to scrap. That is why they don't exist today so let's all stop kidding ourselves that there are thousands waiting to be discovered!

Here you have a car the 105 that was in fact made to last 30 to 60 plus years if looked after well. So today you are presented with three condition levels; very rusty cars not derivable need full restoration, daily driver cars need recommissioning and pristine restored.
I think there are three close to vertical supply curves SRusty, SDriver and SRestored. And there are 3 demand curves. Cars will move between groups and the delay is 4 years for a good restoration regardless of starting condition, assuming you have allot of NOS parts to start with.
Once the 'cool thing' effect reacts with a tightly held limited market supply we may see D2 demand curve shifting to the right to D3 again driving up prices and depending which car type you are after, rusty, driver or pristine you will see the price rise in some cases allot.

'Or do you think there is any possibility for prices to drop in the next 10 years in real terms'?

That is good question. People fixing the 105's still have to get to work buy petrol and other car/transport/train services and buys stuff, like food and power and car polish. Let's say these inflation cost add up for 10 years at 2.5% per year. UK consumer price inflation fell in March to 2.5%, the lowest rate in a year, according to the Office for National Statistics. Real terms means prices don't reflect inflation effects.

I will use a restored car as an example
Today a car you are interested in costs 50k pounds and you either buy it of you don't. If you don't the current owner puts on an extra 1200 pounds for inflation at the end of the first year so the price goes up to 51,500 pounds etc until the 10 years is up, by that time the car is valued at 64k, if you remove inflation effects it is 50k in real terms. So do I think the 50k pound car today will be worth more that 64k (50k real terms) in 10 years (64-50=14k inflation effects) mmm.
If in 10 years the price was 63k, then there was a drop in real terms of 1k car is worth 49k in real terms, what you are hoping for assuming consumer price inflation stays at 2.5% for 10 years.
Luxury 'cool' items from history tend to double in price with in 10 years, you would have to look at other comparable cars maybe E-types and Aston Martins. In 10 years it could be a 100k pound car, or (100-14)k= 86k in real terms, forcing you to pay an extra 36k in real terms if you purchased 10 years later.
Or you buy the car now at 50k pounds and enjoying driving it for 10 years. If you sell it at the end of the 10 years for 100k you will make a profit of 36k pounds in real terms less costs you will need to factor in for any loan and storage / maintenance etc.

Most of this is my personal opinion (except about some Govts bailing out some big corporations), you will need to seek your own paid financial advice and technical advise as to what suits you.
Best wishes Steve
Dear Steve,
thank you for your very detailed answer. These echo my thoughts as well. Indeed, the magazine Practical Classics should close down really in a few years, as there are very few classics left for less than 10,000 pounds. With regard to what a previous poster said, I'm located in Cambridge, UK. You are right that people tend to be in the market for "a classic car", with some discriminating factors for each buyer. However, Alfa Romeos, possibly also due to their rebirth as a brand, have become unattainable. I would like to get a classic car as a daily driver. I started being interested in classics 7 years ago as a teenager, and got a VW Beetle. But there doesn't seem to be much hope now for a nice classic at "real people" prices.
I wonder also whether the China market has something to do with it as well. I don't see prices dropping without a financial crisis and concurrent rise in interest rates which probably won't happen together. I find it interesting that you think there's less than 10 daily driver Sprint GTs left. I remember 4 years ago when someone put a Giulia Sprint GT up for sale at 4,000 Euros. It didn't last for more than 24 hours. And when you could get running Giulia saloons for 3,000 euros...
Best wishes
Macklemore
 
I know of some one who 8 years ago sold a GT Veloce for 5k here in Australia, it was tidied up and on sold for 12k. Even the workshop owners and parts sellers have said to me they were caught out did not see it coming, the 'price correction' as I would call it! [Not a spike as that means it is coming back down].
I had the chance to buy a good restored car for 22k, I did not have the money available at the time so someone else got it. My current car project was a pulled apart shell missing just about everything with a poor nose repair I chose to have it replaced,the black painted one is the new one.
Cheers Steve
 

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Discussion starter · #23 ·
Nice! Some Fiats or Lancias might offer a similar driving experience now, no? I assume that the rebirth of Alfa Romeo increased demand for its classics. In the same way that Alvis cars are cheap(er), while similar style cars from still existing marques are not.
 
Might as well ask him if they are $US or $Can.. save the trip and ship it before it is scarfed under your nose..or would you rather risk the money on a rust bucket hiding "minor blems"? Not being caddy but I have bought cars from the continent that were more risky than this and 5 x the price based on gut..
 
Bob Hoye, Subtle, lives in Vancouver and might take a look or know someone who could. Of course there is logistics and shipping to UK. This might add 50% of the cars cost.
 
owns 1991 Alfa ES-30 Sprint Zagato
I sold a running 1969 GTV for 2.5K but, it needed body work to remove the rust. I still maintain the idea that you save your money and buy the best car you can afford. The days of buying a pre-1974 Alfa for nothing is a thing of the past. I wish you luck in finding your car.
 
Might as well ask him if they are $US or $Can.. save the trip and ship it before it is scarfed under your nose..or would you rather risk the money on a rust bucket hiding "minor blems"? Not being caddy but I have bought cars from the continent that were more risky than this and 5 x the price based on gut..
File this as an OOPS.. Vancouver WAshington is not in Canada
 
If you like the challenge do it as i do 2 times in 2015/17. Pick a friend with italian skills and make a tour to italy. Check out subito.it to know where the trip should go.

But, check out the law. Could be difficult with the authorities.
Second time we was 24 hour at the customs.

If you find a driveable car you could go over France back to UK. So everything in the EU if you hurry up ;)
 
Lots of late 70s and 80s Spiders around in rough to drivable shape...$3500 to $8000. Some spit and polish, some upgrades as you can afford them, some mods as you want to make them...and you'll have a great car. The spiders got overlooked because they were produced in such high numbers...but if you dump the frumpy bumpers, drop the ride height, and clean the car up, you will have great ride. Take it a little farther and you've got a great machine for time trials and auto X. Parts are plentiful and not expensive...seats and tops are easy to get replaced. And because they are currently at the bottom of the desirability list they have the most appreciation to look forward to. I'm slowly massaging my wife to get used to the idea that we need a third car again. And it will definitely be a Spider. I've had coupes and sedans all my life...but a brief ownership of a 911 cab reintroduced me to the delight of open top driving.
 
Lots of late 70s and 80s Spiders around in rough to drivable shape...$3500 to $8000. Some spit and polish, some upgrades as you can afford them, some mods as you want to make them...and you'll have a great car. The spiders got overlooked because they were produced in such high numbers...but if you dump the frumpy bumpers, drop the ride height, and clean the car up, you will have great ride. Take it a little farther and you've got a great machine for time trials and auto X. Parts are plentiful and not expensive...seats and tops are easy to get replaced. And because they are currently at the bottom of the desirability list they have the most appreciation to look forward to.
A friend of mine looked into restoring a 1975 Spider say vs a 1966 GT Veloce about 20 years ago. The Spider was going to cost him 20-30% more in parts, and both cars were valued the same when finished. The reason the Spiders are so cheap today is because of the cost of parts specific to Spiders mainly and because Alfa brought in a new Spider out later. Spiders once they get the rust issues in the sills it is uneconomic to fix them at today's prices. I would probably avoid these, they will end up as most of the Berlinas did donating their running gear to 105 coupes. If you want a Uni hack car you can have some fun with go for it, keep in mind you will be getting rid of it sooner than you think.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
A friend of mine looked into restoring a 1975 Spider say vs a 1966 GT Veloce about 20 years ago. The Spider was going to cost him 20-30% more in parts, and both cars were valued the same when finished. The reason the Spiders are so cheap today is because of the cost of parts specific to Spiders mainly and because Alfa brought in a new Spider out later. Spiders once they get the rust issues in the sills it is uneconomic to fix them at today's prices. I would probably avoid these, they will end up as most of the Berlinas did donating their running gear to 105 coupes. If you want a Uni hack car you can have some fun with go for it, keep in mind you will be getting rid of it sooner than you think.
Interesting. Thank you for the help! It would be nice to get a car for uni now. Unfortunately in the UK the cost to insure a classic car as your primary vehicle is prohibitive.
 
A friend of mine looked into restoring a 1975 Spider say vs a 1966 GT Veloce about 20 years ago. The Spider was going to cost him 20-30% more in parts, and both cars were valued the same when finished. The reason the Spiders are so cheap today is because of the cost of parts specific to Spiders mainly and because Alfa brought in a new Spider out later. Spiders once they get the rust issues in the sills it is uneconomic to fix them at today's prices. I would probably avoid these, they will end up as most of the Berlinas did donating their running gear to 105 coupes. If you want a Uni hack car you can have some fun with go for it, keep in mind you will be getting rid of it sooner than you think.
I'm not sure this holds true an longer true given the appreciating values of both cars in most all geographies. Indeed it may be more sensible (economically) to buy a spider, the initial capital cost will be cheaper as will the repairs. That said, i'm not willy waving at your comment, just looking at it a different way. Besides, chicks dig the Spiders and are a bit meh on the Coupes - so long as its warm and you have a picnic planned (subjective i know, but i live within an hours drive of the Australian Sunshine and Gold coasts and the Hinterlands :) )

Both the Coupe, Spider and 4 door Giulia Sedan have pretty much the same chassis construction, across all 105/115 variants and years. The middle sill on the Spider has more bracing or gussets welded into. Sedan is longer, etc..

If there is (and there always is!) rust in the lower body, ie. sills, then it will require fixing(replacing) by somebody who is competent and understands the way the cars were constructed. How much you pay for this labor will be dependent upon their experience and who (your ability to control the project) and where you are (labor costs).

The price of the parts for both cars is negligible, indeed a quick scan of ClassicAlfa's website shows that the total cost for all three sills on the RH side of a Coupe versus a Spider is £310 vs £280 (before any discounting).

So currently the Spider is cheaper! I didn't check but I imagine floors and other lower parts will be very close in price. Coupe maybe cheaper as they sell more of them.

Where the Coupe is more expensive is the upper body - it rusts far worse than the Spider around the base of the front windscreen and around the edges of the rear windows and back glass. The Spider rarely rusts in these places (Pininfarina versus Alfa construction perhaps). There's no rust in the Spiders roof either :)

in anycase, and in my experience (I own both coupe and spider) the cost of replacement metal and parts is negligible - the real cost is the labor. Anything you can do yourself will save you a fortune.

Buy the best car you can afford and that you like! Do not expect to make a profit on any of them (unless they really are Alfa esoterica).

Every model will have rust in the lower body - most cars will have been bodged. It's really only now (last ten years) that people are able to buy the right parts and consider it economic to repair them correctly.
 
...It's really only now (last ten years) that people are able to buy the right parts and consider it economic to repair them correctly.
This is the very welcome consequence of these cars' recent increase in value: people now want to save them, restore them to their original glory and (hopefully) drive them. Alfas are sexy, they stimulate all your senses, the way they smell, sound and feel, by virtue of the involving driving experience. They make us feel alive and real, in this increasingly artificial, instantly gratifying world.

Uhm..sorry, can get quite lyrical about these beauties. You can probably tell I grew up with Alfas and I'm nearing middle age...
 
Cars can even get rusty here in Los Angeles...but in fact there are many many more that are in good shape than bad. I had the purist coupe thoughts for many years. But my first race car was a 1958 Spider Veloce and my second was a 1965 Giulia Sprint GT. If I could have one of them back it would be the Spider (and not for resale value but for driving pleasure). And that is what has me looking at 1970 to 1980 Spiders. Lots of good ones at a fourth or a third of the cost of a GTV in comparable condition...and the Spider is just as good a car on the track or off. I guess I'm a convert to a convert.
 
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