[Duk]

What these guys do (I've sat with them in a couple of sessions with my 3liter) is real time stuff on the dyno. They set the load/speed on the rollers and vary fuel/advance checking torque and afr. All the equipment necessary to do this is offered by the links I posted. When finished with the dyno run throughout the speed/load range, the new info is loaded on a new chip (or an erased old one) and that's it.

Was their equipment able to tell them where the Bosch was looking at any given rev/load point? Cost of the equipment they used?

It's all redundant for me, I've got an Adaptronic E420c for my 75

 

[festy]

One thing, its getting rare to find the old 256/512 DIL-28 eprom chips... Very few places still have them for sale!...Not that our cars are state of the art...

Just make a simple adapter board and run a 32 pin flash IC in place of the old EPROM, and you can switch the additional address lines to swap between different maps then.

Edit: I just looked at those links, and allcarracing.it's "multi-eprom kit" is just that - with a circuit to switch A lines from a rotary switch.

 

[Jim K.]

The x-y maps on the laptop screen gave numerical values (ms) for injector operation and he went to the 'box' in use at any particular time and altered the value looking at afr. I don't know the current cost of everything required (emulators, burners, programmers, universal adaptors etc) but you should be able to get an answer from the two sites mentioned.
I also have a new and still unused E420C I got, but for the 24v I chose to use the std 164Q4 management which will soon be remapped. It has a hot-film afm so no flaps or restriction, sequential injection, two knock sensors, two lamda sensors (one per bank) cam sensor, coil-on-plug...That's std Bosch stuff for this engine and ...1992 vintage, 20 years old now! I just find hard to believe the E420c would do any better!
Jim K.

 

[festy]

The cost of the hardware to do this is quite low - you could get set up for just a couple of hundred dollars. The tricky part is knowing where the maps and parameters are that you want to change

I had a very quick look at a rom dump from a 75 last night, and there appears to be a bunch of tables starting at 0x4000H. I also found a few of the functions that reference some of the maps - but without a schematic of the ECU and a *lot* of time and effort, I have no way of knowing what any of these maps are, or how the values are calculated.

If a table was identified, it would be a simple job to write a definition file to get a generic tuning program to interpret the data, then you could edit the table and 'upload' the new bin to an eprom emulator in the ECU - or burn to a flash chip to plug in to the ECU.

 

[Biba69]

While way over my head, I find this discussion very interesting and keep it going as long as you care to.

However, if any or all of you can give me a reasonable guesstimate as to what an 'enhanced' chip* for a 'stock' engine would offer that the original one doesn't. I'm guessing it allows for an increased rev limit along with more fuel at higher rpm's. I would assume that there also might be changes in the ignition timing at 'some point'.

Perhaps I should start from the beginning. The TS will go into my '75 Alfetta GT daily driver. This means I want a minimum of downtime, so I'm trying to cover all bases beforehand.

It's very doubtful there will be any track-days, but I want to be able to leave it in gear should I be on some twisty roads which might mean high revs. I don't do heel and toe for diddle. Of course all rotating parts will be balanced.

One of the most important features I want is for the engine to maintain a good idle, Especially when the A/C is on.

I'll add should there be any situations where an enhanced chip might cause a problem, the Alfetta does not take well to idling or going slow when the temp is much over 85 F.

This isn't very orderly, but there will be no catalytic converter though I have a bung installed for an oxygen/lambda sensor before the resonator.

I'd be happy with 148 HP at the rear wheels, though a few more would be welcome, providing it doesn't impinge on drivability.

*Sorry Duk, even the fellow who wrote my Bosch (1989) book uses the word chip.

Boy does this look like a magnetic pick-up to me.

 

[Jim K.]

This is the top distributor and like the bottom one, it has no pickups, nothing. Both TS engine distributors are 'dumb'; all they do is distribute HV. The sparks are generated by the ecu based on a number of inputs: crank toothed wheel inductive pickup (which supplies rpm+crank angle) afm (load+air temp) coolant temp sensor and throttle switch. As Bosch says, one of the throttle switch functions is to enable proper idle speed which is mostly set in Motronic systems by varying the spark advance as this is considered faster acting than the idle stepper motor. You can verify this by hooking up a timing light on idle and turning various loads on/off (lights/aircon/heater etc).
A 'chip' for the TS will maybe give you 6-8hp more than your engine has, it will move up the rpm limiter and will most probably hurt economy -as some friends observed here. As to your 148hp idea... I know some dynos measure std TS cars at 125-135hp on the engine....so don't be too optimistic about what to expect on the wheels!
One word about your pic: note how wide the brass rotor tip is and remember what I said about this a few posts back.

Festy: As I said, these companies sell/rent what you need to map cars and you are seeing proper x-y maps with real values, just like with the aftermarket ecu's. Buying outright costs a few thousand $$ but you can see and address all important tables (idle, warmup, fuel/rpm, advance/rpm etc).
Jim K.

 

[festy]

Festy: As I said, these companies sell/rent what you need to map cars and you are seeing proper x-y maps with real values, just like with the aftermarket ecu's.

Here's a screenshot of how my tables are displayed for editing. I was playing with some rev limiter settings this morning, hence the rev bounce at 3600rpm in the logs (if you can even read those numbers).
This one is an old GM ECU, not a motronic - but it's the same vintage, and it's running a nord now at least

What I was getting at was that if the tables in the motronic were deciphered, they would be displayed just like this - and anyone with an eeprom emulator and a laptop could have a go at tuning themselves.

I found a basic map definition file for the 155 Q4 on the net last night, so 'home tuning' of those is already possible by the looks of it.

The (free) software I'm using is ECU agnostic, it just needs to be told where in the eprom image to find the tables and how to interpret the values.

 

[Duk]

I also have a new and still unused E420C I got, but for the 24v I chose to use the std 164Q4 management which will soon be remapped. It has a hot-film afm so no flaps or restriction, sequential injection, two knock sensors, two lamda sensors (one per bank) cam sensor, coil-on-plug...That's std Bosch stuff for this engine and ...1992 vintage, 20 years old now! I just find hard to believe the E420c would do any better!
Jim K.

Nissan were also providing that sort of technology back then too (a little earlier). So was Toyota, but they preferred MAP sensors.
Definitely, for a decent road car, a properly sorted and capable factory system with Zillions of dollars/euros/pounds of development will achieve much. Here in Oz, the madest of the Ford Falcon XR6 turbo's use retuned factory ECU. 1 company who were very strong Motec supporters/users dumped Motec systems on their earlier engine once the equipment for properly tuning the OEM ECU became available.
Obviously they have their limitations tho. Packaging is one that I found a problem when adding forced induction to some cars. The AFM can seriously get in the way and cause all kinds of challenges.
Then there are auxiliary control features. Not the the Alfa has it, but the Adaptronic will control continuously variable (not just a single step) valve timing but the E420c can only do 2 camshafts, not 4.
Mad camshafts and AFM's aren't a great combination, but could possibly be made to work.
Reversion back through turbos (big turbo equipped Nissan GTR are pretty notorious for this) can cause the AFM signal to measure air in the opposite direction when the engine doesn't need it and cause fun things to happen. Similar story to externally venting blow off valves.

 

[Jim K.]

My most 'sophisticated' application so far is the 24v engine and as long as it has one throttle plate I believe the stock 164Q4 management (Bosch 3.7) to be entirely adequate for any upgrades. If my proposed 3.2 with ITB's ever gets off the ground, maybe it'll be time for the e420c.
On the other hand, the 1.8T engine is clearly ...Bedrock vintage and therefore perfectly happy with the remapped Marelli management from the almost equally ancient Sierra Cosworth 2wd (~1985, L6 ecu) or the very similar -but more advanced- Lancia Integrale management (L8 ecu). Correctly mapped on the dyno (and possibly road-trimmed) these systems are capable of exploiting 100% what these engines can do and I for one, am happy to leave it at that.
I still mess a bit with some electronics wizardry -when I have to- but I think I'll leave the serious delving to more eager and inquisitive minds, as according to the now famous phrase ...I'm too old for this $hit!
Jim K.

 

[festy]

I've disassembled a 75 TS rom image and started work on creating a tunerpro definition file for it this morning.
I have a couple of 3d tables mapped out already - I think I might possibly have a spark advance and/or a VE table from the look of the graphs, but will need to work my way through a lot more code before I can really tell what I'm looking at.
I haven't got as far as determing the calculations to show any 'real world' numbers in those tables yet, but at least it's a start

When I get a bit further with this (assuming I actually do), I'll have to get myself of one of these ECUs so I can play around a bit.

 

[Biba69]

festy, I'll be curious as to what you come up with.

I'm getting crappy gas mileage out of my nord with DCOE's, 10:1 pistons, and (I think) the factory 10548032 cam.

Do people get poor gas mileage out of the remapped chip/chips simply because of how the chip has been remapped...or because owners then put their foot into it more and more often?

Oh yes, does one remove and then send their TS chip to be remapped, or does one receive the remapped chip and then send the original one in as a 'core'?

 

[slyalfa]

dam I did not know they were in demand I just tossed last month when cleaning about 100lbs of 256/512/1024Mbit DIP UV eproms
I think I have tossed most if not all of my UV erasers too. and most of the programers.
I filed a 4 spot drive way all the way up and a big truck came and took everything for free. (they want the scrap metal) I only kept some of the gold chips. but was glad to get some space back.

 

[festy]

Oh yes, does one remove and then send their TS chip to be remapped, or does one receive the remapped chip and then send the original one in as a 'core'?

It's hypothetical at the moment, but the cost of posting the 'core' back would be more than the chip is worth. Either a new flash chip and adapter board would be used in it's place, or for under $100 you could set yourself up with the hardware and software to do your own tuning.

 

[Jim K.]

dam I did not know they were in demand I just tossed last month when cleaning about 100lbs of 256/512/1024Mbit DIP UV eproms
I think I have tossed most if not all of my UV erasers too. and most of the programers.
I filed a 4 spot drive way all the way up and a big truck came and took everything for free. (they want the scrap metal) I only kept some of the gold chips. but was glad to get some space back.

You did WHAT?? Here we are scrounging for these things and I read this! Oh well, that's life, ain't it?
Biba, I suppose -as you correctly surmise- people installing upgraded chips are surely inclined to 'step on it' as that's what they were looking for in the first place. A friend here who installed just such a chip from Squadra said his consumption went up, but when I rode in his car, I saw why!
If anything, mileage should improve as they usually increase ignition advance, which is always very conservative in factory maps.
Btw, chips are bought outright, no returns, core refunds or such.
Jm K.

 

[festy]

You did WHAT?? Here we are scrounging for these things and I read this!:

If you're looking for 28 pin EPROMs, I'll happilly send you some.
I pull them out and replace with 1Mbit flash chips (or non-volatile RAM) on the ECUs I play with - which then lets you switch between 'tunes' with the flick of a switch. The same could be done for the TS ECU as well, though.

I've mapped out a few more tables now, and found what appears to be a battery bias table for injector pulse width, and a couple of coolant/air temp bias tables too.
And also what looks like the ignition advance tables for the two fuel maps (98RON and standard?)

 

[Jim K.]

Some guys here use two 28-pin DIL eproms piggyback and switch maps with pin #1 -if I remember right- haven't done this particular thing in years.
Jim K.

 

[festy]

I have a feeling this is the main spark advance table (there should be a second for the alternate fuel map but I haven't looked for it yet) - I'm not sure what the engine load numbers equate to in real figures, but the cell values *should* represent degrees of advance (negative numbers would show retard).

Does it look right? The base advance is about 10 deg, and max is 29, but there's a lot of timing pulled at higher loads low in the rev range?

 

[Jim K.]

Good job! Hmmm, tell you what: You keep going the way you do and when you're done, you put together a Motronic-specific mapping kit (with idiot-proof instructions...) and sell it to us!
That will make many of us happy, sending us back in our caves with new toys for a good while!
Jim K.

 

[slyalfa]

Jim I have not use a UV ROM for over 10 years or more so at some point I just need to clean things up..
but every time I toss something it seems like some one needs it a few weeks later....
if I come across some stragglers I will collect them up and send them to you.

That spark map look not to bad . The low advance for smog at idle.
I wonder if the peak is real. the ECU should do smoothing between the cells and the peak might be flat do to the algorithm in the ECU. you need to find what the algorithm is used and use the same algorithm for plotting if you want to see the real story
It is a very simple curve with a small dent at 90 (Kpa?) 2500RPM looks right that is were you might get a lot of det. kinda surprised to see it come up any at 120
but that might be due to the extra fuel at WOT cooling the charge and allowing for a tad more advance.

 

[Biba69]

Interesting in that I was just wondering if 10.5:1 TS pistons, with the stock chip, would mean the ignition timing would alway be retarded.

Next question is would it be possible to predict - up to a point - how to compensate for relatively small modifications such as the additional .5 compression on a modified chip? Meaning stock cams, etc.? Or is the only way to really know is with the car on a chassis dyno?