It's been idling rough at 800 rpm, rarely at 1000 rpm. Very rough idle, sounds like the car is about to die at any moment. Accelerated is rough too, can barely drive in 1st gear without stuttering. Exhaust also pops, it has to be running rich. Bad timing has to be the culprit, does anyone know where I could pinpoint this issue? Can you rotate the distributor cap on the 164?
Olivier Bonjour
Timing's off
NO, you cannot move distributor on an Alfa 164 12v V6 engine.
Me thinks you are in need of an Alfa 164 12v V6 New Owners Tutorial Indoctrination 101A course.
First, let's clear up what year, model, engine and transmission type 164 you are now the new owner of?
Second, the Alfa 164 ignition timing and fuel injection systems are controlled by the Bosch Motronic system computer.
Third, valve timing is controlled by the proper setting of the cam pulley timing marks when crankshaft pulley timing mark is set at pointer on front of engine which means #1 cylinder piston is at top dead center.
We have a special template you can download on your computer and print off on a printer to check cam timing.
Me thinks you are in need of an Alfa 164 12v V6 New Owners Tutorial Indoctrination 101A course.
First, let's clear up what year, model, engine and transmission type 164 you are now the new owner of?
Second, the Alfa 164 ignition timing and fuel injection systems are controlled by the Bosch Motronic system computer.
Third, valve timing is controlled by the proper setting of the cam pulley timing marks when crankshaft pulley timing mark is set at pointer on front of engine which means #1 cylinder piston is at top dead center.
We have a special template you can download on your computer and print off on a printer to check cam timing.
Cam timing pdf template. Print it off on 8 1/2 x14 paper at 100% scale setting. This is Rick's Template he posted for us to use.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/att...95/66906d1179330802-cam-timing-cam-timing.pdf
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/att...95/66906d1179330802-cam-timing-cam-timing.pdf
Checking cam timing on 12v V6 engine in car: Checking Alfa 164 12v V6 engine cam timing
Guide to 164 Timing Belt Tensioners
Guide to 164 Timing Belt Tensioners
All of the above is of course great invaluable information for the new 164 owner. This new owner should read all of it carefully, and get a copy of the workshop manual in one form or another.
One very quick easy check he could make, once he figures out where it is, is to check the electrical connection at the idle control device mounted on the middle back of the rear head intake plenum, to the left hand side of the car from the oil vapor recovery device. Roadtrip John's comments (miss that guy and his informative postings, wish he was back on the BB) on that device discusses pretty much the same poor running conditions if the wire is not cleanly connected. I had that happen once some time ago with my 91S when the idle became very rough, ready to die, hesitation and roughness on acceleration, etc. Cleaning the connection and treating it with dielectric grease cured that little problem.
Most seem to ignore that device and it's electrical connection, blaming almost everything else instead for these symptoms. It's just a simple first start to troubleshooting.
In fact, cleaning and protecting all accessible engine bay electrical connections should always be the first simple check to make. If for nothing else, just being proactive in servicing. My mechanic Carlo always thought it seemed to be a problem with 164s for some reason, Alfa paying him a dollar or so for each one he cleaned and treated on those cars.
Still, yes, this car could have other problems if not properly maintained by the PO.
One very quick easy check he could make, once he figures out where it is, is to check the electrical connection at the idle control device mounted on the middle back of the rear head intake plenum, to the left hand side of the car from the oil vapor recovery device. Roadtrip John's comments (miss that guy and his informative postings, wish he was back on the BB) on that device discusses pretty much the same poor running conditions if the wire is not cleanly connected. I had that happen once some time ago with my 91S when the idle became very rough, ready to die, hesitation and roughness on acceleration, etc. Cleaning the connection and treating it with dielectric grease cured that little problem.
Most seem to ignore that device and it's electrical connection, blaming almost everything else instead for these symptoms. It's just a simple first start to troubleshooting.
In fact, cleaning and protecting all accessible engine bay electrical connections should always be the first simple check to make. If for nothing else, just being proactive in servicing. My mechanic Carlo always thought it seemed to be a problem with 164s for some reason, Alfa paying him a dollar or so for each one he cleaned and treated on those cars.
Still, yes, this car could have other problems if not properly maintained by the PO.
Ok. Looks nice in the pictures from the PO. Quite a bit of servicing. Yup, the seats need work (the Italian leather in these cars can really suffer from being sun baked and not treated. I use ArmorAll Leather Care goop slathered now and then on the black ones in my 91S, and they are still ok).
Keep us posted as to trouble shooting progress. Be sure to check the idle control device wire connection before anything else.
Keep us posted as to trouble shooting progress. Be sure to check the idle control device wire connection before anything else.
Good. Hope it helps to fix the problem.
Looks like it needs new hood struts. I bought a pair several years ago for not much from Latvia IIRC. Price was good and shipping was inexpensive and fast. ALFA ROMEO 164 1987-1998 Hood DAMPER SHOCK x2 STRUT PROP Pair | eBay
Sun is out right now up in Des Moines by the airport, but that will change in a minute or two, lol. Otherwise, rainy and windy.
Looks like it needs new hood struts. I bought a pair several years ago for not much from Latvia IIRC. Price was good and shipping was inexpensive and fast. ALFA ROMEO 164 1987-1998 Hood DAMPER SHOCK x2 STRUT PROP Pair | eBay
Sun is out right now up in Des Moines by the airport, but that will change in a minute or two, lol. Otherwise, rainy and windy.
Cleaned out the idle control wire like you said, tried jumping the car, and now it wont start. Something must have been disconnected, I'll try checking the fuel pump.
Owning one of these things is like being an IT tech 24/7 its crazy
Owning one of these things is like being an IT tech 24/7 its crazy
Sometimes, if you have tried to start it with a low battery, the starter will turn over, but the resulting voltage will be too low, less than say ~11v, to turn on the computer. Thus, the engine will become flooded since the fuel pump is turned on while cranking, and even with a new battery, will be tough to start until the excess fuel is cleared from the chambers. If it is flooded, and you try to jump it, it may not start. I've gone on a long trip somewhere sometimes, and accidentally let the battery run down as the car sits at home without a trickle charger, and the engine can be a little hard to start because of this situation. It can flood.
Holding the throttle wide open while you crank can help clear the fuel. You can probably remove just fuse 20, engine supply, and then crank. Haven't tried it, but I think it won't let the fuel pump run while you crank the engine, while holding the throttle open.
Or, you can pull the plugs and let the chambers air out for a while. Not difficult to pull the plugs. I think that maybe the only thing to move is the oil vapor recovery can back a little. Otherwise, all the plugs are accessible. Gives you a chance to check the condition of the plugs. I recommend using the appropriate NGK Iridium 5/8 inch (not the standard 3/4 inch) hex plugs, makes it easier to mess with them, and they work well.
Really, once you begin to understand these cars, and have kept up everything, including the battery, lol, they start and run fine. They do like being used. My 91S has 199k miles of DD now, and it starts and runs nicely yet.
Holding the throttle wide open while you crank can help clear the fuel. You can probably remove just fuse 20, engine supply, and then crank. Haven't tried it, but I think it won't let the fuel pump run while you crank the engine, while holding the throttle open.
Or, you can pull the plugs and let the chambers air out for a while. Not difficult to pull the plugs. I think that maybe the only thing to move is the oil vapor recovery can back a little. Otherwise, all the plugs are accessible. Gives you a chance to check the condition of the plugs. I recommend using the appropriate NGK Iridium 5/8 inch (not the standard 3/4 inch) hex plugs, makes it easier to mess with them, and they work well.
Really, once you begin to understand these cars, and have kept up everything, including the battery, lol, they start and run fine. They do like being used. My 91S has 199k miles of DD now, and it starts and runs nicely yet.
No, plugs will not go bad in this situation. They are good to go, most likely just flooded. Otherwise, just do a quick check of the engine bay electrical connections, just in case you might have knocked something loose. Make sure the multiconnector to the AFM is snugged in properly. Had that work loose one time with a GTV6. Car wouldn't start until I clipped it in tight.
You don't need to remove any hoses, just move the OVR can back by unscrewing it's bolts to access the rear right side of car plug. In fact I leave out the bolt closest to the idle actuator to make it easier later on.
All the plugs can be removed otherwise.
It helps to have a magnetic probe to lift and reinsert the plugs in the rear if your plug socket doesn't have the retention foam inside to hold the plug. That way you don't drop one down into the area behind the engine where they are difficult to retrieve, lol. Yes, I did that with a new plug once, never to be found again.
Have you tried removing fuse 20, or perhaps unplugging the AFM multiplug, and try to start the engine with the throttle held open in order to clear the chambers, fuel not running, then reinstalling the fuse and try again to start the engine?
All the plugs can be removed otherwise.
It helps to have a magnetic probe to lift and reinsert the plugs in the rear if your plug socket doesn't have the retention foam inside to hold the plug. That way you don't drop one down into the area behind the engine where they are difficult to retrieve, lol. Yes, I did that with a new plug once, never to be found again.
Have you tried removing fuse 20, or perhaps unplugging the AFM multiplug, and try to start the engine with the throttle held open in order to clear the chambers, fuel not running, then reinstalling the fuse and try again to start the engine?
He's not changing the plugs. He is just opening up the most likely flooded chambers to let the excess gas escape. He tried to start the car with a low battery, and in the 164, this can cause the engine to flood. Hard to start that engine then.
Have had that happen a couple of times in my 164 if I've left it during a long trip away from home without a battery tender hooked up. I go out when I get back, try to start the car, engine sort of turns over but the plugs will not fire, while the fuel pump runs, flooding the engine. Hard to start until the excess gas is gone.
Have had that happen a couple of times in my 164 if I've left it during a long trip away from home without a battery tender hooked up. I go out when I get back, try to start the car, engine sort of turns over but the plugs will not fire, while the fuel pump runs, flooding the engine. Hard to start until the excess gas is gone.
The fuel injection should shut off if you crank the engine with your foot flat on the floor. That's for winter when the engine might flood. It's pretty much impossible to flood a modern engine unless it's very cold out. Those days are long gone.
I'd never bother taking the plugs out just to clear a supposedly flooded engine nowadays.
I'd never bother taking the plugs out just to clear a supposedly flooded engine nowadays.
Or, if you try to start the 164 engine with a low battery. I don't know if the fuel pump shuts off if you hold the throttle pedal to the floor. If it does, great. If it doesn't, then you have to turn off the pump while using the starter with the throttle open. I also prefer to not pull the plugs, although that does work.
alright tried cleaning the connection, and it still runs like crap. My friend told me to try switch around spark plug caps to see if its a distributor problem.
Ah, that's a shame. Have you checked the large rubbing intake tube for splits, letting in excess air? They do die after a while.
Was it running ok before you bought it, until you did something, or did it just start running crappy all by itself? Maybe you did mislocate plug wires when you changed the plugs?
Was it running ok before you bought it, until you did something, or did it just start running crappy all by itself? Maybe you did mislocate plug wires when you changed the plugs?
Ah. I see.
Never ever spray the upper part of the engine bay with whatever other than perhaps water, which can evaporate at least with time. Some do, but I think it is just asking for a lot of trouble. I just wipe upper metal parts down with some WD-40 to clean them, and all spray the rubber/plastic parts with Armorall. I clean the lower half of the engine with engine cleaner spray and then spray it with water to rinse that stuff off. Never the upper part of the engine and bay.
You should now go through and clean and protect every electrical connection in the bay, including pulling the dist cap and cleaning the insides, scraping the electrodes in the cap, buffing the rotor tip, cleaning everything free of corrosion, dirt, and the possible contamination due to the spraying.
Never ever spray the upper part of the engine bay with whatever other than perhaps water, which can evaporate at least with time. Some do, but I think it is just asking for a lot of trouble. I just wipe upper metal parts down with some WD-40 to clean them, and all spray the rubber/plastic parts with Armorall. I clean the lower half of the engine with engine cleaner spray and then spray it with water to rinse that stuff off. Never the upper part of the engine and bay.
You should now go through and clean and protect every electrical connection in the bay, including pulling the dist cap and cleaning the insides, scraping the electrodes in the cap, buffing the rotor tip, cleaning everything free of corrosion, dirt, and the possible contamination due to the spraying.
Never clean the engine bay. It's completely unnecessary and can lead to all manner of problems.
Never clean the engine bay with any liquid water. Professionally done steam cleaning can be necessary if you have a very serious oil leak which these engines don't suffer from. My engine bay has never been touched by any cleaning attempt, ever, in 30 years. The engine has never ceased to work and has never been opened except for valve clearance adjustment and cam seals.
Swapping plug wires won't tell you anything and never did. Swapping one new plug wire in sequentially might tell you but if you actually have a permanent misfire in a modern engine your check engine light will go on and stay on.
Not much stops these emission controlled engines from starting and running. The usual causes are air leaks downstream of the air measurement device (AMM or in the case of the 164 the flap device). Electrical sensor failures all throw a check engine light and code.
Most likely you've got water into a connector somewhere, or even inside your distributor. Next most likely is an air leak.
Never clean the engine bay with any liquid water. Professionally done steam cleaning can be necessary if you have a very serious oil leak which these engines don't suffer from. My engine bay has never been touched by any cleaning attempt, ever, in 30 years. The engine has never ceased to work and has never been opened except for valve clearance adjustment and cam seals.
Swapping plug wires won't tell you anything and never did. Swapping one new plug wire in sequentially might tell you but if you actually have a permanent misfire in a modern engine your check engine light will go on and stay on.
Not much stops these emission controlled engines from starting and running. The usual causes are air leaks downstream of the air measurement device (AMM or in the case of the 164 the flap device). Electrical sensor failures all throw a check engine light and code.
Most likely you've got water into a connector somewhere, or even inside your distributor. Next most likely is an air leak.
My experience is that I don't really think that a faulty temperature sender or lambda sensor will have the stated poor running.
I suspect the problem is either contamination of one or more of the engine electric connections or devices since he washed the engine down with whatever, or perhaps an air leak.
The engine originally was probably flooded because he tried to start the engine with a low battery, which can end up flooding the engine.
I suspect the problem is either contamination of one or more of the engine electric connections or devices since he washed the engine down with whatever, or perhaps an air leak.
The engine originally was probably flooded because he tried to start the engine with a low battery, which can end up flooding the engine.
dang, it keeps flooding! I leave the car idle for a few days as I've been busy, and it flooded again when I tried to start it! I took out the plugs to let it air out again but I don't want this to be a recurring issue.
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