You haven’t mentioned adjusting the TA to the appropriate gap and I worry about your mention of “backing off” the TA. I doubt you can appropriately adjust the mixture/fuel cut off or cold start solenoids without having the TA adjusted to the appropriate gap. By reference screw I do hope you’re referring to the internal screw under the TA and not the reference screw where pump gap is measured.

 

The CSS plunger operates in a little oil reservoir that's vaguely like the slow stop on a screen door. It retracts quickly, but then releases slowly. Which, to me based on your description, means your CSS is operating correctly. The problem is elsewhere.

You haven't mentioned checking the rod lengths or the idle stop screws. IME these have always been tweaked, and tweaked, and tweaked by POs and well-meaning mechanics to keep cars with out-of-spec TAs running. Putting a new TA in will definitely keep pumps adjusted for bad TAs from working right.

The first time I put a new TA in mine, I assumed all the other settings were wrong. I started from the first step in the calibration book, and worked my way through it. I didn't use Wes's book (I can't find the one I used) but his will definitely get the job done if you follow it carefully.

The failure Wes talks about and that you are trying to test is a long-term problem. A car with that issue will run fine, but the oil will smell really weird and eventually cause excessive engine wear. It won't make it run stupid and be hard to start.

Confirm the rod lengths and stop screws are correct first of all. If they are, it's easy to get the fuel cutoff solenoid screwed in half-way. Once you get it fired up and in operating temperature, disconnect the CSS, and adjust from there. SPICA is obscure and quirky, but it's logical once you get used to it.

 

Thanks for the reply.

You haven’t mentioned adjusting the TA to the appropriate gap and I worry about your mention of “backing off” the TA. I doubt you can appropriately adjust the mixture/fuel cut off or cold start solenoids without having the TA adjusted to the appropriate gap.

When I originally installed the TA after getting it from Wes, I did follow his instructions before I started messing with the cold start solenoid and the fuel cutoff solenoid. I had screwed the internal screw under the TA in completely, and then backed it out 2 complete turns. That's when I noticed the problem of the car not starting so tried removing the TA and discovered that the car would then start as described in the previous message. I found that backing the screws off that attached the TA to the pump, so the piston on the TA didn't press the adjustment screw underneath, accomplished the same thing. Once I used this 'trick' to start the car I let it warm up to ~175 and then set the gap for the pump by removing the long rod from the bell crank and the TA and adjusting the screw, I don't remember how many turns I had to do, but once the lever was 0.019 away from the reference screw I reattached the TA and tried starting the car again. Because the engine was still warm, the car would start easily but ran very rough and as soon as I touched the accelerator the car would stall.

By reference screw I do hope you’re referring to the internal screw under the TA and not the reference screw where pump gap is measured.

That's correct, I haven't ever adjusted or even looked sideways at the reference screw where the pump gap is measured and I hope that in all the years of people poking at this car no one else has either.

I'm hoping to start back at square one with turning the adjustment screw in all the way, backing it out 2 turns and letting the engine warm up to 175 and re-check the gap but I'd like to rule out that the cold start solenoid and the fuel cutoff solenoid are not contributing to the problem I'm having.

 

I found that backing the screws off that attached the TA to the pump, so the piston on the TA didn't press the adjustment screw underneath, accomplished the same thing.

Which perfectly describes a pump calibrated to run with a TA that's completely dead. Your description of subsequently adjusting the long rod is a little puzzling. A dummy TA can be used, and some factory manuals recommend it. I did it the old fashioned way by removing the TA, turning in the screw, putting the TA back, warming it up, and then checking the gap with rod disconnected & then connected. I repeated that until I got it right. In my case, because of my much earlier pump, I had to screw the adjustment screw all the way in and use a 2mm shim. But them's the breaks.

As the TA drifts out of spec you'll notice it not running as well. It takes about 2 years in my case. When that happens, adjust the screw under the TA until you get the gap back, then re-set the fuel cutoff solenoid (FCS) (step 7). When the TA screw won't back out anymore (takes ~ 10 years for me), it's time to get a new TA. These should be the only regular adjustments you ever make to the SPICA pump once it's adjusted properly. I have proven this to my satisfaction through more than a decade of experimentation. I'm an old fart with an urge to tinker. Fear me!

The AROO guide isn't the one I used, but it's close enough. Step 7B is obsolete now that Centerline carries a tool that will do the job. You can use their procedure, but be very careful not to peen the threads on the FCS closed. When I did that, you could still get FCSs from APE. Nowadays I'm not sure that's the case. The manual I had included instructions for step 7 and 8 that referenced an exhaust gas analyzer. These are still available although I haven't used one in ages. If your car still has it and you can read it, there's a sticker under the hood that'll give you the target values. I'll wager there are other threads that will also give the info. However, the procedures in step 7 & 8 in the AROO notes have been used by Alfisti for decades, so they do work.

The instructions to get the throttle plates adjusted so they don't quite close completely is correct and counter to a lot of armchair advice you'll get around here nowadays. I've adjusted the short rod as advised in the AROO notes and haven't had an issue in nearly 40 years. You be the judge of who is right . One of these days I'll either find or make the tool the factory offered to adjust those idle stop screws. In the meantime I glued a spirit level to a plastic ruler and used that to set the angles. I still have it, at least I think I do. As the AROO notes imply, though, once you get those set right you should never touch them again.

Good luck!

 

Thank you for the advice.

The CSS plunger operates in a little oil reservoir that's vaguely like the slow stop on a screen door. It retracts quickly, but then releases slowly. Which, to me based on your description, means your CSS is operating correctly. The problem is elsewhere.

You haven't mentioned checking the rod lengths or the idle stop screws. IME these have always been tweaked, and tweaked, and tweaked by POs and well-meaning mechanics to keep cars with out-of-spec TAs running. Putting a new TA in will definitely keep pumps adjusted for bad TAs from working right.

I think perhaps you're right, I've adjusted the long rod once I had the gap set properly on the pump, but the car wasn't running properly before adjusted it, or after. I had an older Italian mechanic look at the car once, before I replaced the TA and he made some adjustments, perhaps he changed the idle stop screws... or somebody else along the way.

The first time I put a new TA in mine, I assumed all the other settings were wrong. I started from the first step in the calibration book, and worked my way through it. I didn't use Wes's book (I can't find the one I used) but his will definitely get the job done if you follow it carefully.

I agree here too, I troubleshoot computer software/hardware and I am familiar with this train of thought. It's was easier to start from scratch and then at least I'll know what's set. I've got a ton of PDFs for the Spica pump, and just found another one tonight. I wonder if this is the one you used from the AROO tune up clinic [aroo spica tune up] . A web search can be so useful, but also can pull up so much information that is out of date or misleading. I appreciate Wes' book, but it's such a pain to read on the Kindle App on my phone and it's been locked down so it isn't even printable to paper.

The failure Wes talks about and that you are trying to test is a long-term problem. A car with that issue will run fine, but the oil will smell really weird and eventually cause excessive engine wear. It won't make it run stupid and be hard to start.

Whew! I hope you're right.

Confirm the rod lengths and stop screws are correct first of all. If they are, it's easy to get the fuel cutoff solenoid screwed in half-way. Once you get it fired up and in operating temperature, disconnect the CSS, and adjust from there. SPICA is obscure and quirky, but it's logical once you get used to it.

Thanks again, I'll find a reference guide and try setting the stop screws and rod lengths. Then I'll go back to the start of installing the TA and setting the gap. I'll work my way out from there.

 

I’ll wait for the experts to weigh in. Following for interest.

 

DJ Scott - when he describes “backing off the screws that hold the TA to the pump”— this is most certainly not a dead TA adjustment hack. It is a hack to compensate for an overlength TA. His point is he doesn’t have a 2 mm shim so he backs out the 2 cheesehead screws that hold the TA flange to the pump body so that the TA flange isn’t flush to the pump. That’s how - lacking a shim or washers- a 27mm TA can be set up on a 25mm pump. Not the best way nor do I recommend it.

 

That’s how - lacking a shim or washers- a 27mm TA can be set up on a 25mm pump. Not the best way nor do I recommend it.

Ah-ha! Yeah, not a great solution. If such a thing needs to be made, it's time for (at least) a Dremel tool and a small bench vise. Back in the early 2000s I had both and was able to do small fabrication jobs like creating an appropriate shim out of an almost-right washer. Twenty years later and my Dremel was worn out and my wife had migrated my vise to a place I'll likely only discover when we move out. I've got new little projects now, so a new Dremel arrived yesterday and a new vise will be picked up this weekend.

 

I've (relatively) recently replaced the TA on my Spica pump and am having problems getting my 78 Spider running properly. I've been poking away at the car for the last few weeks in my spare time trying to figure out the issue and feel ~pretty~ confident that the issue is with the Spica pump not being set up properly.

I have Wes' Spica book and have exchanged a couple emails with him, but hate to bother him more directly. I'm hoping the 'hive mind' will be able to help me out. I followed his install instructions from the paper I received with the TA,and also the details in his book, but then when the car wouldn't run properly, messed with the fuel cut off and cold start solenoids to a point where I feel like I'd like to reset them into a 'known good' position.

Is there a way I can put the two solenoids in a position to start over?

For those who are interested, the details of my issue are below:

When the TA was installed my Alfa would not start when cold. It would turn over but wouldn't ever 'catch' and start. Disconnecting the cold start solenoid electrical connection didn't make a difference. Pump calibration screw Screwed in all the way and backed off 2 full turns.

If calibration screw is turned in all the way on cold start car catches but stalls after ~3 seconds, even if the accelerator held at 2k RPM

If the TA is partially backed off, the Alfa will start fine and idle at 1500 RPM then will start to increase idle as temp gauge increases to 140+ and then races up as temperature climbs

With TA backed off and Alfa engine temp is over 140 it will not start unless accelerator is pressed. Once accelerator is released car idles at 2500 and dies when temperature hits ~170.

Thinking it may have been an electrical problem or fuel supply problem I changed the spark plugs & leads. I also checked the fuel pressure. The fuel pressure on a T pressure gauge after the front pump and fuel check valve. It read between 35 & 40 PSI while running.

Full disclosure: I also used's Wes's method of pull oil out of the sump in the Spica pump with a straw and tryed to light it on fire to check for gas in the oil. I was able to light the oil for ~3 seconds, but did not notice any 'bad' smell beforehand (although my wife says I'm immune to those) and the oil "looked ok". I'm really hoping the pump doesn't need to be rebuilt to solve my problem.

Link to video of oil vs lighter [ ]

I’m afraid you are nearing last legs on your spica pump. Barrels/plungers are worn and you have gasoline in your oil. Start saving your quarters for either a spica pump rebuild or a carb setup. Sorry to bear the bad news.

 

I missed that. If you do indeed have gas in your engine oil, stop driving your car.

 

Thanks for the concern. I'm hoping that the small amount of gas in the oil from the Spica sump isn't what you mean when you say that. I don't have any noticeable gas in the oil when I did an oil change, so I'm hoping that I can buy some time with the car before I have to shell out for a pump rebuild.

 

Somewhere in these threads I recall a thread that spell out TA length, by year of the car, may also be available on Wes's website or call them.

 

What is not said here or that I missed it in the comments, is what year of a pump or the pump number? There is a difference between the pumps depending on the year and the smog requirements for that year. There was a change in the TA extended length from 27mm to 29mm. This is why you need an adjustable dummy actuator or the factory tools( hard to find). The 29mm sometimes used a thick paper shim under it so that it lifted the actuator to be more adjustable. The extended length would push it down to far and be out of calibration no matter how much you turned the screw under the actuator.
Have you measured the length of the new actuator?

 

Have you measured the length of the new actuator?

Thanks, I needed the push to test it. I had been thinking about it, but was resisting pulling it out again. I figured it would have come within spec from Wes, but I wanted to rule it out, just in case.

I just pulled it off today and put the bulb in 175° water. The piston is 25.1mm when cold and 29.2 mm when at 175°, so at least I can say that it isn't the issue. One less thing on the list of possibilities.

 

@jdfraser, there are lots of moving parts here. Without addressing all of the questions and responses here I will ask a few more, and then make a few statements. Under your ownership, has the engine ever run really great? While it may in fact have had a faulty TA, there may be other problems as well. All of the service manuals state that before making any mixture adjustments ( Spica or carb ) one needs to make certain that many other checks are made. Compression, cam timing, ignition timing, etc. Have you made these checks? Lastly (for now), in your first post you mention the fuel pressure.

You state:
Thinking it may have been an electrical problem or fuel supply problem I changed the spark plugs & leads. I also checked the fuel pressure. The fuel pressure on a T pressure gauge after the front pump and fuel check valve. It read between 35 & 40 PSI while running.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you here. The correct place to check the pressure is after the main fuel filter and pressure valve housing in the engine compartment, and the inlet to the Spica pump. The inlet is the rearmost port. The outlet back to the tank is the frontmost port. The frontmost port has a calibrated orifice to keep the pressure in the pump at about 12-16 psi. If you, in fact, have 35-40 psi fuel pressure in the pump, this could be one of your problems.

 

@goats, I agree that it isn't good, but let's not start packing the box to Wes quite yet. If he indeed has 40psi of fuel pressure in the FI pump, that will cause bleed-off into the sump. I advise fixing the fuel pressure, getting the engine running great, then change the engine oil and filter AND Spica filter (and flushing the Spica with a quart of fresh oil) and then see how contaminated the oil gets. Even Bosch FI engines will have gassy oil when there are problems and the cylinder walls get washed.

 

I had the both the in-tank and in-line fuel filters changed when I first got the car, both from Centerline. The in-line one is the Bosch 2 port [centerline link]. I've changed the tank one again since then myself and it's still also from Centerline. I'm thinking that if the fuel presure is too high, then that would be a pump issue, and probably not the little tank pump. I'm not sure if the Bosch pump is out of adjustment (if it even has one), or if perhaps could be faulty. I'll check with Centerline, but probably won't hear from them now until after the weekend.

** edited for clarification.

 

^^^agree!^^^ Id be shocked if the FP at the pump inlet is 40 psi.

 

@jdfraser Under your ownership, has the engine ever run really great?

Yes, it has run very well in the past. I've had the car for about 10 years, inherited it from my father. He had it parked in his garage for the last 4 years before I received it. It had run well, before he parked it he had it on multiple weekend trips of 500 KM and was a weekend driver.

When I received it, I had a trusted mechanic drop the tank, clean and coat it. Replace both fuel pumps, filters and fuel lines. We also did some non engine related maintenance.

Once it was back in order I used it as a weekend car and a few trips up to Whistler (200+ KM) It was always hard to start when cold, but ran well when warm. I started to notice it was lugging a bit at higher RPMs but that problem was resolved by cutting off the catalytic converter (it has become clogged). After that it ran better but would be hesitant around 4500rpm with the car losing power and making a sound like pushing air through loose lips.

I took it to an Italian guy who had one of these cars when he was younger and he adjusted 'a bunch of stuff', but in the end it didn't solve the problem with it losing power at 4500 rpm. He suggested getting the injectors cleaned, so I did.

The injector cleaning didn't really make any difference either, and so after some research I figured it was likely the pump or the TA. I figured the TA was the less expensive option so I went with that and picked one up from Wes Ingram.

In the process of replacing the TA I noticed that one of the spark plug leads was not seated in the distributor cap all the way and so ended up replacing all the leads (and making sure they were all seated properly.
I removed the plugs and cleaned them up a bit and low and behold the issue with it losing power at 4500 RPM was gone.

While it may in fact have had a faulty TA, there may be other problems as well. All of the service manuals state that before making any mixture adjustments ( Spica or carb ) one needs to make certain that many other checks are made. Compression, cam timing, ignition timing, etc. Have you made these checks? Lastly (for now), in your first post you mention the fuel pressure.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you here. The correct place to check the pressure is after the main fuel filter and pressure valve housing in the engine compartment, and the inlet to the Spica pump. The inlet is the rearmost port. The outlet back to the tank is the frontmost port. The frontmost port has a calibrated orifice to keep the pressure in the pump at about 12-16 psi. If you, in fact, have 35-40 psi fuel pressure in the pump, this could be one of your problems.

I am measuring the fuel pressure from where you suggest, after the mail fuel filter and the inlet (rear port) to the Spica pump. This is where I am seeing the 35 - 40 psi. Should I also measure at the rearmost port? Could the 35 -40 psi at the inlet to the pump be an issue, or is it only a problem if I see the high psi at the outlet to the tank?

 

Thanks to all the suggestions on this thread, I decided that I would try again and start from scratch.

I pulled out the TA and measured it at cold temperature which was 25.1 mm (my caliper could be a bit off...) and I then stuck the bulb in 175° water and measured it again it was protruded for a measurement of 29.2 mm (again might be a caliper variance). So I believe that the new TA from Wes is operating within spec.

I could not get the car started at this point to warm it up to the required 175° to begin the calibration, so I backed off the TA from the pump using the 2 'cheese' screws so that it was 4.4 mm away. This allowed me to start the car and let it warm up to 175°.

Once at 175°, I removed the TA from the pump completely and removed the long rod from the bellcrank. I adjusted the screw under the TA to make the lever .019" from the pump. In order to get that measurement the screw had to be turned in until it bottomed out. I know that the screw does not have dirty thread as I had previously removed it and the small spring, cleaned them and put them back in. If I back the screw off one full turn the lever is .017" from the reference screw, and this is where I left it, as I thought it would be best if the screw was not bottomed out, and all the guided seem to indicate that as long as the gap is not 0, or more than 0.019" it should be ok.

I used the AROO tune up clinic document and started at step 1 (as stated above) and progressed up until step 6. At step 6 I needed to restart the engine to warm it up again, but could not get it to restart. I had the long and the short rods both back connected and the TA in all the way. When I first started the car the RPM raced up to 4000RPM and after letting do that for about 1/2 a minute or so I was worried so I turn of the ignition. I then tried to restart the engine (still cold) with the TA backed off 4.4 mm but the engine would only start and run for 2 - 3 seconds (~1200 RPM) and then die. I experimented with putting the TA back in all the way, but still experience the engine only running at around 1200 RPM and then stopping.

I'm wondering now as other have suggested if the fuel pressure is perhaps too high somehow. It must be caused by the pumps so I'll try to find an adjustment for that. I'll also see if I can test the gauge somehow, but it's brand new, so it should be OK.

For what it's worth, the bellcrank stop screws were not at all close to what the AROO tune up document suggested. The idle limit was way off and the full throttle was close, but also off. I've adjusted them to where the guide says they should be.

 

What I prefer to do rather than the prerequisite hot AROO procedure is to perform the gap adjustment (getting to .019”…) using a cold engine with a dummy actuator(you can make one yourself) that is set up to match the exact length of your TA at 175°.

Doing it this way, you don’t have to have the engine (partially) hot and you don’t have to be removing and reinstalling the TA potentially with the bulb up top still attached.

The use of a dummy TA is covered in one or more of books and articles, I just haven’t looked recently!

 

Thanks, I do have a dummy TA made up with a bolt, a washers and a couple of nuts, I'll use that.

 

I agree with earlier posts that the high system pressure is a problem that needs to be resolved one way or another, ideally with a pressure regulator.

 

If my memory is correct, the fuel pressure is regulated by, #1, a pressure relief valve in the main (engine bay) filter housing. If it is too high, it returns the fuel to the tank. #2, the orifice in the return port on the Spica injection pump. Again, the pressure is tested (I use a fluid-filled gauge) between the main filter and the Spica injection pump inlet port. Until you get that to about 16psi, you are wasting your time.

 

Post #22 - Are you saying that you have 40 psi at the outlet port (front port) to the tank? If so, you have an obstruction in the return line.

 

I found a thread [https://www.alfabb.com/posts/8550469/] from a few years ago where someone here had a similar issue with their fuel pressure being too high. They've drilled out the restrictor orifice on the pump to reduce the PSI. I'm going to do a bit more research and report back here.

 

And he keeps talking about a pump in the tank too? The only pump for SPICA is the external one - there’s no pump of filter in the tank - so I am confused by all this….

 

Some of the early '78 Spiders didn't have an in tank pump, but mine being a late '78 does. Apparently it was added by the factory to prevent vapor lock conditions.
[Centerline in tank pump]

 

@goats, don't (some?) the later top outlet tanks have delivery pumps in the tank?
I too am confused by some of the posts.

 

Learned something g new today. I’ve never worked 78 that I recall, my 79 alfetta has only external pump. Yeah, until u get fuel pressure worked out don’t mess with spica adjustment

 

My understanding is, a 78 would have originally had a 3 port main electric pump with a fuel pressure regulator built in, and unlike a ‘69-‘64 system, a 78 does not have a pressure regulator inside its newer style 2 port front fuel filter housing.

Meanwhile, I think jdfraser has a new 2 port electric pump which does not have a built in pressure regulator and is producing high pressure (?)

I’ve read about how you could retrofit a 69 to 74 front fuel filter assembly, it has the pressure regulator built-in, and the return line from the spica pump flows through it and back to the tank. that filter has a higher micron rating than the newer style front filter so it Isn’t as good for the spica pump possibly.

leading to the next idea of using an external fuel pressure regulator? I have no experience doing this myself.

 

There was a service bulletin to install the in tank pump on all spica spiders with the top feed tanks. Basically making it what the S3’s would end up with.

 

my 79 spider has one