[jdfraser]

Have you measured the length of the new actuator?

Thanks, I needed the push to test it. I had been thinking about it, but was resisting pulling it out again. I figured it would have come within spec from Wes, but I wanted to rule it out, just in case.

I just pulled it off today and put the bulb in 175° water. The piston is 25.1mm when cold and 29.2 mm when at 175°, so at least I can say that it isn't the issue. One less thing on the list of possibilities.

 

[jdfraser]

@jdfraser Under your ownership, has the engine ever run really great?

Yes, it has run very well in the past. I've had the car for about 10 years, inherited it from my father. He had it parked in his garage for the last 4 years before I received it. It had run well, before he parked it he had it on multiple weekend trips of 500 KM and was a weekend driver.

When I received it, I had a trusted mechanic drop the tank, clean and coat it. Replace both fuel pumps, filters and fuel lines. We also did some non engine related maintenance.

Once it was back in order I used it as a weekend car and a few trips up to Whistler (200+ KM) It was always hard to start when cold, but ran well when warm. I started to notice it was lugging a bit at higher RPMs but that problem was resolved by cutting off the catalytic converter (it has become clogged). After that it ran better but would be hesitant around 4500rpm with the car losing power and making a sound like pushing air through loose lips.

I took it to an Italian guy who had one of these cars when he was younger and he adjusted 'a bunch of stuff', but in the end it didn't solve the problem with it losing power at 4500 rpm. He suggested getting the injectors cleaned, so I did.

The injector cleaning didn't really make any difference either, and so after some research I figured it was likely the pump or the TA. I figured the TA was the less expensive option so I went with that and picked one up from Wes Ingram.

In the process of replacing the TA I noticed that one of the spark plug leads was not seated in the distributor cap all the way and so ended up replacing all the leads (and making sure they were all seated properly.
I removed the plugs and cleaned them up a bit and low and behold the issue with it losing power at 4500 RPM was gone.

While it may in fact have had a faulty TA, there may be other problems as well. All of the service manuals state that before making any mixture adjustments ( Spica or carb ) one needs to make certain that many other checks are made. Compression, cam timing, ignition timing, etc. Have you made these checks? Lastly (for now), in your first post you mention the fuel pressure.

Perhaps I'm not understanding you here. The correct place to check the pressure is after the main fuel filter and pressure valve housing in the engine compartment, and the inlet to the Spica pump. The inlet is the rearmost port. The outlet back to the tank is the frontmost port. The frontmost port has a calibrated orifice to keep the pressure in the pump at about 12-16 psi. If you, in fact, have 35-40 psi fuel pressure in the pump, this could be one of your problems.

I am measuring the fuel pressure from where you suggest, after the mail fuel filter and the inlet (rear port) to the Spica pump. This is where I am seeing the 35 - 40 psi. Should I also measure at the rearmost port? Could the 35 -40 psi at the inlet to the pump be an issue, or is it only a problem if I see the high psi at the outlet to the tank?

 

[jdfraser]

the fact that you lit your oil on fire is a giveaway that there is gasoline in the oil. Pull a sample from the crankcase and see if you can light it on fire. If you can -- even for 2 seconds -- thats no bueno.

Doh! I will put this on my to-do list after I solve the current issue of getting the TA / pump tuned. The general consensus is that the (hopefully) small amount of fuel in the spica sump shouldn't be causing my current problem.

 

[jdfraser]

@goats, I agree that it isn't good, but let's not start packing the box to Wes quite yet. If he indeed has 40psi of fuel pressure in the FI pump, that will cause bleed-off into the sump. I advise fixing the fuel pressure, getting the engine running great, then change the engine oil and filter AND Spica filter (and flushing the Spica with a quart of fresh oil) and then see how contaminated the oil gets. Even Bosch FI engines will have gassy oil when there are problems and the cylinder walls get washed.

I had the both the in-tank and in-line fuel filters changed when I first got the car, both from Centerline. The in-line one is the Bosch 2 port [centerline link]. I've changed the tank one again since then myself and it's still also from Centerline. I'm thinking that if the fuel presure is too high, then that would be a pump issue, and probably not the little tank pump. I'm not sure if the Bosch pump is out of adjustment (if it even has one), or if perhaps could be faulty. I'll check with Centerline, but probably won't hear from them now until after the weekend.

** edited for clarification.

 

[jdfraser]

Thanks to all the suggestions on this thread, I decided that I would try again and start from scratch.

I pulled out the TA and measured it at cold temperature which was 25.1 mm (my caliper could be a bit off...) and I then stuck the bulb in 175° water and measured it again it was protruded for a measurement of 29.2 mm (again might be a caliper variance). So I believe that the new TA from Wes is operating within spec.

I could not get the car started at this point to warm it up to the required 175° to begin the calibration, so I backed off the TA from the pump using the 2 'cheese' screws so that it was 4.4 mm away. This allowed me to start the car and let it warm up to 175°.

Once at 175°, I removed the TA from the pump completely and removed the long rod from the bellcrank. I adjusted the screw under the TA to make the lever .019" from the pump. In order to get that measurement the screw had to be turned in until it bottomed out. I know that the screw does not have dirty thread as I had previously removed it and the small spring, cleaned them and put them back in. If I back the screw off one full turn the lever is .017" from the reference screw, and this is where I left it, as I thought it would be best if the screw was not bottomed out, and all the guided seem to indicate that as long as the gap is not 0, or more than 0.019" it should be ok.

I used the AROO tune up clinic document and started at step 1 (as stated above) and progressed up until step 6. At step 6 I needed to restart the engine to warm it up again, but could not get it to restart. I had the long and the short rods both back connected and the TA in all the way. When I first started the car the RPM raced up to 4000RPM and after letting do that for about 1/2 a minute or so I was worried so I turn of the ignition. I then tried to restart the engine (still cold) with the TA backed off 4.4 mm but the engine would only start and run for 2 - 3 seconds (~1200 RPM) and then die. I experimented with putting the TA back in all the way, but still experience the engine only running at around 1200 RPM and then stopping.

I'm wondering now as other have suggested if the fuel pressure is perhaps too high somehow. It must be caused by the pumps so I'll try to find an adjustment for that. I'll also see if I can test the gauge somehow, but it's brand new, so it should be OK.

For what it's worth, the bellcrank stop screws were not at all close to what the AROO tune up document suggested. The idle limit was way off and the full throttle was close, but also off. I've adjusted them to where the guide says they should be.

 

[alfasette]

What I prefer to do rather than the prerequisite hot AROO procedure is to perform the gap adjustment (getting to .019”…) using a cold engine with a dummy actuator(you can make one yourself) that is set up to match the exact length of your TA at 175°.

Doing it this way, you don’t have to have the engine (partially) hot and you don’t have to be removing and reinstalling the TA potentially with the bulb up top still attached.

The use of a dummy TA is covered in one or more of books and articles, I just haven’t looked recently!

 

[alfasette]

I agree with earlier posts that the high system pressure is a problem that needs to be resolved one way or another, ideally with a pressure regulator.

 

[andylarry]

If my memory is correct, the fuel pressure is regulated by, #1, a pressure relief valve in the main (engine bay) filter housing. If it is too high, it returns the fuel to the tank. #2, the orifice in the return port on the Spica injection pump. Again, the pressure is tested (I use a fluid-filled gauge) between the main filter and the Spica injection pump inlet port. Until you get that to about 16psi, you are wasting your time.

 

[andylarry]

Post #22 - Are you saying that you have 40 psi at the outlet port (front port) to the tank? If so, you have an obstruction in the return line.

 

[jdfraser]

What I prefer to do rather than the prerequisite hot AROO procedure is to perform the gap adjustment (getting to .019”…) using a cold engine with a dummy actuator(you can make one yourself) that is set up to match the exact length of your TA at 175°.

Doing it this way, you don’t have to have the engine (partially) hot and you don’t have to be removing and reinstalling the TA potentially with the bulb up top still attached.

The use of a dummy TA is covered in one or more of books and articles, I just haven’t looked recently!

Thanks, I do have a dummy TA made up with a bolt, a washers and a couple of nuts, I'll use that.

 

[goats]

And he keeps talking about a pump in the tank too? The only pump for SPICA is the external one - there’s no pump of filter in the tank - so I am confused by all this….

 

[andylarry]

@goats, don't (some?) the later top outlet tanks have delivery pumps in the tank?
I too am confused by some of the posts.

 

[jdfraser]

Post #22 - Are you saying that you have 40 psi at the outlet port (front port) to the tank? If so, you have an obstruction in the return line.

I found a thread [https://www.alfabb.com/posts/8550469/] from a few years ago where someone here had a similar issue with their fuel pressure being too high. They've drilled out the restrictor orifice on the pump to reduce the PSI. I'm going to do a bit more research and report back here.

 

[jdfraser]

And he keeps talking about a pump in the tank too? The only pump for SPICA is the external one - there’s no pump of filter in the tank - so I am confused by all this….

Some of the early '78 Spiders didn't have an in tank pump, but mine being a late '78 does. Apparently it was added by the factory to prevent vapor lock conditions.
[Centerline in tank pump]

 

[goats]

Learned something g new today. I’ve never worked 78 that I recall, my 79 alfetta has only external pump. Yeah, until u get fuel pressure worked out don’t mess with spica adjustment

 

[alfasette]

My understanding is, a 78 would have originally had a 3 port main electric pump with a fuel pressure regulator built in, and unlike a ‘69-‘64 system, a 78 does not have a pressure regulator inside its newer style 2 port front fuel filter housing.

Meanwhile, I think jdfraser has a new 2 port electric pump which does not have a built in pressure regulator and is producing high pressure (?)

I’ve read about how you could retrofit a 69 to 74 front fuel filter assembly, it has the pressure regulator built-in, and the return line from the spica pump flows through it and back to the tank. that filter has a higher micron rating than the newer style front filter so it Isn’t as good for the spica pump possibly.

leading to the next idea of using an external fuel pressure regulator? I have no experience doing this myself.

 

[vintagemilano]

There was a service bulletin to install the in tank pump on all spica spiders with the top feed tanks. Basically making it what the S3’s would end up with.

 

[alfasette]

my 79 spider has one

 

[andylarry]

Post #33 - The small hole in the outlet port is designed to regulate the pressure inside the injection pump. If you are testing 40 psi on the return line, that can only be caused by an obstruction in the return line, post injection pump. I've never tested the psi on the return system, but I'm guessing that it should be closer to 1 or 2 psi, than 40.

 

[Urbana1750]

I suspect the high pressure issue is whether there is any pressure regulator in the system. Seems likely that the 3 port original pump may have been replaced with a 2 port pump with out any pressure regulator. If so, might need to install an earlier main filter with its built in regulator or find a 3 port pump, if these are still available. The oriface at the SPICA pump’s return line can be used to fine tune the flow but shouldn’t be expected to bring 40 psi down to what’s needed.