[velocedoc]

it has always been my conjecture that when a buyer wanted an Alfa Romeo, they would go to the company and order the chassis (sport/Super Sport). Alfa Romeo would then offer a choice of standard chassis builders and body styles. The company would be contacted upon choice, the chassis delivered and the owner contacted by the coachbuilder. The two would collaborate on what ever personal choices would be made available as the car came together once the chassis was fitted with the body. I am thinking that if you had the money to buy a car of this stature in this time period, (aka buying a top end Ferrari) you could even go find your own body builder to hammer out what ever you wanted. As you say in a previous post, there were 3 levels of coach makers. I never would have imagined there were that many levels let alone that many people out making bodies.
After the war, there must have been a lot of people competing for attention and the Lira hoping to become a major player in the making of bodies for the few chassis builders. The evolution of stardard bodies into racing bodies would have certainly captured the eye of those seeking someone on the cutting edge. The rear window treatment in our discussion car would have been out on that edge vying for attention. I know this is probably retoric, but felt like I needed to say my mind.

 

[dretceterini]

it has always been my conjecture that when a buyer wanted an Alfa Romeo, they would go to the company and order the chassis (sport/Super Sport). Alfa Romeo would then offer a choice of standard chassis builders and body styles. The company would be contacted upon choice, the chassis delivered and the owner contacted by the coachbuilder. The two would collaborate on what ever personal choices would be made available as the car came together once the chassis was fitted with the body. I am thinking that if you had the money to buy a car of this stature in this time period, (aka buying a top end Ferrari) you could even go find your own body builder to hammer out what ever you wanted. As you say in a previous post, there were 3 levels of coach makers. I never would have imagined there were that many levels let alone that many people out making bodies.
After the war, there must have been a lot of people competing for attention and the Lira hoping to become a major player in the making of bodies for the few chassis builders. The evolution of stardard bodies into racing bodies would have certainly captured the eye of those seeking someone on the cutting edge. The rear window treatment in our discussion car would have been out on that edge vying for attention. I know this is probably retoric, but felt like I needed to say my mind.

I would tend to think cars were available in 3 ways;
1) compleated cars sitting at dealers (probaly PF or Touring, for the most part)

2) as you state above

3) Alfa would sell people a bare chassis/motor unit

This may have even been the case into the time when the 1900s were built..

 

[2000 touring sp]

Thank you, thank you I love you chaps on this forum.
I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia.
But I do also find it acceptable to raise the question. Is it so authoritative as we would like it to be, or expect to be. When a picture of a car like the one in question, is omitted by reason we don't know. But if the reason for the omission only by the reason on picture quality. I disagree with the decision. And if it omitted by the reason of unknown origin it could just had been stated, "unknown Carrozzeria".
But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right.
Yes, Freccia, none has stated that the 6C2500 book contains all cars produced on 6C2500 chassis, and from the chassis number there is some we don't know about, but with the access the editor has had to all main <<<Archivo>>> one does expect, that what was known at the time the book went into print, is also contained in the book, or at lest I do.

velocedoc. Generally it was not usual the a chassis was sold direct to the later owner. The big carrozzerie had presumably standing orders at Alfa Romeo Factory on chassis. And the body that should be mounted on the chassis would then be individual agreed, between the customer and carrozzeria. There where also some sort of standard designs from the diff. Carrozzeria that was running in small series as a sort of "standard production". I a customer then wanted a complete individual design, he would get it, but if the capacity in the factory was limited, they used sub suppliers. The reason the customer didn't go direct to the small carrozzeria, was, I expect. The customer where wealthy people and there was a great prestige to own an individual designed car from one of the big carrozzeria. Not much diff from to day, The badge on a car is still of significance important.
If one goes back to the 30, almost no car producer in Italy produced bodies, it was gradually changed during the 30 when the car producers started to have a standard model range.
This led gradually to the close of the Italie Carrozzeria, and the finally we se up in the 50, where they customaries standard cars ,primarily with special painted edition

 

[gtv2000]

Thank you, thank you I love you chaps on this forum.
I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia.
But I do also find it acceptable to raise the question. Is it so authoritative as we would like it to be, or expect to be. When a picture of a car like the one in question, is omitted by reason we don't know. But if the reason for the omission only by the reason on picture quality. I disagree with the decision. And if it omitted by the reason of unknown origin it could just had been stated, "unknown Carrozzeria".
But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right.
Yes, Freccia, none has stated that the 6C2500 book contains all cars produced on 6C2500 chassis, and from the chassis number there is some we don't know about, but with the access the editor has had to all main <<<Archivo>>> one does expect, that what was known at the time the book went into print, is also contained in the book, or at lest I do.

2000 Touring: I hope you don't mind, but I feel it silly that you don't fully reckon Anselmi's work, albeit with the praise you state here.

I think that Anselmi's book is best defined by the outstanding depth of the understanding of the car, its era, the conditions of its production, its technical strength and flaws. The book also displays the highest understanding and tribute to coachbuilders.
It may be written in a drier way than Simon Moore's books, which include the detective work tale that makes you enjoy the reading, but Anselmi is possibly even more rigorous in his approach.

For all these reasons I find it difficult to understand that you play this book down despite you usual Alfa culture.

If Anselmi, who is hardly a man prone to compromise, rated some pictures as too poor for the aimed quality level - and the 6C2500 book is also a benchmark for the edition work - it is his full right. No one is compelled to reproduce up to the last, blurred or little significant picture just to get the book complete at the date of edition. Anyway, every time, you find a new document right after you wrap up the work, and then what?

On my side, I just wish that all the historical books on Alfas would display the same quality level as Anselmi's.

 

[2000 touring sp]

GTV 2000 Nice to se you on this tread.
I am sorry to state ,reading you post, one can easily get the impression that you didn't read my Post.

I Wrote:
I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia.
But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right.


So in my interpretation I don't don't think that there is any diff in the way this book generally is valued, and the way that I value the content.
But the Author is not a Mr. Nobody. He is generally known a an Authoritative in the Italian Car history. And in my eyes he is to day the uppermost Authoritative Author in the Alfa Romeo history.
In my opinion, such a position gives obligations, and the reader the right to have the expectation that the content of the work, reflect the title and covers the diff. angle if not all the issues regarding the variety on the known design issue, AT THE TIME THE BOOK IS RELEASED .
And I am sorry, but I don't follow you line quote: "For all these reasons I find it difficult to understand that you play this book down despite you usual Alfa culture."

And if you by Alfa culture mean, one I not allowed to express ones disappointment regarding the content of a book, where the author has omitted a car with a special design as the car in question.. Sorry so I must admit I DON'T HAVE ALFA CULTURE, if that is the "interpretation" of Alfa Culture. And then levee the question of culture to an other tread.

I ad an picture of an other car that is not in the book. This car, Touring on chassis 915215, an very interesting car regarding Touring Design. But there is no new Design elements in this creation, Touring just made an other combination on known themes.
For me its understandable that this Touring 915215 is omitted, BUT I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED TO KNOW THAT THE "CARLO" ONE,IS LITERALLY OMITTED.



I think I have expressed my opinion. So lets use our energy to tray to solve the main question of this tread WHO PRODUCED "CARLOS" MYSTERY 6C2500. I think Carlo deserves it.

 

[gtv2000]

But the Author is not a Mr. Nobody. He is generally known a an Authoritative in the Italian Car history. And in my eyes he is to day the uppermost Authoritative Author in the Alfa Romeo history.
In my opinion, such a position gives obligations, and the reader the right to have the expectation that the content of the work, reflect the title and covers the diff. angle if not all the issues regarding the variety on the known design issue, AT THE TIME THE BOOK IS RELEASED .

I did read your posts, not only the latest, but also the previous one, where you questioned Anselmi's authority on Alfa 2500s, which is, er, audacious.

The quote above is exactly where I dissent with you. An authoritative book is not a complete compilation of documents no matter relevance, quality and contents of the explanations. That's the league of another well-known author, not quite an "authority".

And I am sorry, but I don't follow you line quote: "For all these reasons I find it difficult to understand that you play this book down despite you usual Alfa culture."

And if you by Alfa culture mean, one I not allowed to express ones disappointment regarding the content of a book, where the author has omitted a car with a special design as the car in question.. Sorry so I must admit I DON'T HAVE ALFA CULTURE, if that is the "interpretation" of Alfa Culture. And then levee the question of culture to an other tread.
[...] BUT I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED TO KNOW THAT THE "CARLO" ONE,IS LITERALLY OMITTED.

For me the Alfa, or more generally the automobile culture is what allows you to reckon, stress and praise what differenciates a good book (in this case a masterpiece, I dare to say) from an average or a poor one. And, IMHO, it's not down to the fact that a single car may be missing: ALL THE BOOKS do miss something. The quality stays in the coherence, the depth, the edition work, the accuracy. No one has the "obligation" of completeness, it cannot make sense.

With this, I don't intend to start a flame, and I agree to stay focused on Carlo's mistery car.

 

[carlo]

Ohh what did I do????

I just thought it's a legal question to wonder why Mr. Anselmi was aware of the car but didn't mention it in his book.
I see no problem in the poor quality photo from a vintage Auto Italiana mag. A good copy should be availiable at Publifoto, not an unknown photographer in Italy.
Whatever, I don't intend to blame the author for that, neither am I disappointed that some cars are missing in his book.

The opposite is true
What should we do if there wouldn't be those mysteries???
It creates a very special satisfaction to find out those things, even more if the research is shared by many members of our community. If every book would be perfect, we would have no matter to discuss.

So let's stay focused on those badges and rectangle headlights, those moth-in-kaw-seats and other fascinating Alfa Romeo topics!!!

Peace!
Ciao Carlo

 

[gtv2000]

Yep, back to the topic.

The first square headlights were issued by Bosch in 1940 and found their way on the Auto Avio Costruzioni Tipo 815. Yet, not exactly the same as on "Carlo's" 6C2500.

 

[dretceterini]

I don't think research is EVER compleated, and it is quite possible that we will never know the absolute truth about many things; not only cars. Anselmi did a fantastic job, but the book needed to get finished and there were still mysteries. It is the same case with Simon Moore's fantastic 8c2900 and 8c2300 books. Personally, I have spent 30+ years trying to find the true answers about the Alfa 412 sports! If trying to find answers is your passion, try and do it with many of the "etceterini" marques!

 

[dretceterini]

Yep, back to the topic.

The first square headlights were issued by Bosch in 1940 and found their way on the Auto Avio Costruzioni Tipo 815. Yet, not exactly the same as on "Carlo's" 6C2500.

I do not think the headlights on the two Auto Avio 815s are square; it is only the covers over them that are....

 

[gtv2000]

I do not think the headlights on the two Auto Avio 815s are square; it is only the covers over them that are....

I'm not sure about that, nor about the real shape of the reflectors behind the glass on Carlo's car.

I know that Bosch' proposal then set a small fashion trend back in 1940 and the 815 was the first, or among the first to use them.

I'm not sure, but I seem to remember it was not before the mid-60s and the Cibié headlights fitted to Renault R16 and later R10 that a true rectangular reflector was produced.

 

[dretceterini]

Here is a better photo. It looks like the headlights themselves are round to me...

http://www.museodellauto.it/images/bar_815.jpg

 

[2000 touring sp]

I think Stu is right

 

[dretceterini]

Well, I'm not certain, because the photos are of the car owned by Righini and aren't that old. Certainly the original units could have been replaced with modern ones since the car was built, circa 1939/1040. The second car was destroyed long ago.

Here is yet another modern photo of the Righini car. It is really hard to tell what shape the actual headlight units are...

http://www.barchetta.cc/Common/Images/Scans.Eventi/98.GF.JR/XLarge/815.021.GF.001.jpg

In this period drawing, they appear to be a rounded off rectangle!

http://www.geocities.com/mcascella/aac815-4.jpg

The 2nd (destroyed) car has longer front and rear fenders than the Righini car which still exists

http://www.geocities.com/mcascella/aac815-5.jpg

 

[2000 touring sp]

is this useable

 

[dretceterini]

is this useable

That's the best photo so far, and it appears to be period, so I would say the headlight units themself were round....

 

[2000 touring sp]

I don't think there is a more authority picture. Its from the first Touring book.
In the text are stated Diamond shaped Bosch head lamps typical for the period.
I think its faraway from square lamps

 

[CarterHendricks]

I don't think there is a more authority picture. Its from the first Touring book.
In the text are stated Diamond shaped Bosch head lamps typical for the period.
I think its faraway from square lamps

...and also confirmed by the photos in the Franco Varisco 815 book.

--Carter

 

[dretceterini]

I'm not sure exactly what is meant by "diamond shaped"....could they also be very early sealed beam hedlights? The first patent was issued to Greiner, a German, and resulted in a sealed beam automotive headlight being introduced by Bosch in 1938 and General Electric in 1939.

 

[VeloceOne]

Hi gtv2000,
The first square headlights that come to mind, are the ones on the Maserati QP1 that was first shown in '63..........
Kindest regards Ian.
Note: I suppose "rectangular" would be correct.