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6C 2500 Chassis, Very Unlikely!

Hello John

Thanks for your response. These topics seem to stimulate a lot of informed investigation and discussion.

Having just finished re-building my 6C 2500 front suspension I can assure you that modifying the 6C suspension to centre the engine over the axel line would be a nightmare in a motor car configuration. The forward swing arm pivots are fixed into a "T"(on its side) shaped forging which is approx. 230mm or 9" long inboard of the chassis rail. When bolted to the front crossmember the left and right forgings occupy two thirds of the width of the chassis leaving a gap of about 320mm on the crossmember for the steering bellcrank mounting. All this is vertically in line with the top half of the sump. In other words if you tried to place the 6C engine centred over the axel line at the normal height above the road you would have to remove most of the sump. Indeed the late "Motor Avanzio" model did have only half the sump size of the normal 6C engine to clear the steering gear. The only practical way to achieve that configuration would be to create a wishbone suspension system mounted outside the engine space which is exactly what everyone did to create the engine centre over axel line configuration of most of new monocoque designs post WWII. Given the cost of building this unique body it's unlikely the creators would have gone to the expense of creating a custom built chassis as well.

If you study your Fusi book from page 390 through to 460 look at the front wheel centre to steering wheel dimension in all of the 6C photos until you reach the 1900 section and notice the considerable distance reduction of that dimension between the 6Cs and the 1900s. Then try to imagine where the chauffeur's feet would be in the mystery car (right behind the front wheel arch) with the 6C bell housing pressed against his left ankle.

To my eyes it's just not plausible that this L' Alfa Romeo could be a 6C 2500.

The rear quaterlight windows and the boot windscreen do look curved and if they were laminated glass (like the 6C used) they would have been very expensive items in 1948.

Just as well Italian labour rates were some of the lowest in post war Europe. We have to thank the humble, skilled extraordinary Italian craftsmen of the time for any of these creations, from the bizzare to the beautiful ever becoming reality.
 

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The chauffer's feet.

Hello 2500_6C_Berlina,

I agree that the chauffer would appear to be a bit cramped and do not yet have an explanation of how it was done. Maybe with mirrors?

Seriously, I will say that I think it could have been done and there are a couple of ways that might not involve making a completely new telaio/chassis. There is of course the possibility of changing the entire front suspension system for that of another type.

If it was a 6C2300/2500 with independent front suspension, and if one were willing to give up or modify the Alfa Romeo "T" forgings that run inwards across the front and instead mount different pivot points, moved rearwards, you would need to increase the track a bit and work out the steering angles. I would have to take some dimensions from a car with this in mind to see what the minimum track might be with the suspension units moved back say 12 to 18 inches or even more. If this mystery vettura were a rebodied 6C2300 from early on (7th Series 6C), then it might even be possible for the beam axle to run under the engine? It also does not look like AR1900 dimensions would explain the anomalies but it is also remotely possible ... even though I am not inclined to think that the 1948 caption date is all that far off.

When I look carefully at the photo (and squint a bit), I think I can almost make out the targa at the left front. If that were the case, we'd be able to research the plate and come up with the chassis number of whatever it is/was. And then we would have additional (and perhaps different) questions? Perhaps we should search out the original Publifoto image when there is a chance to do so. It might give us a better idea of the coachbuilder's name as well as the license plate on the car. And of course, we are certainly aware that the "Alfa Romeo" designation might be in error and maybe the original print will give us another thought?

I will say, however, that curved laminated safety glass was not in common usage at this time. Almost all glass in this era was tempered safety glass and not laminated. In fact, I would be surprised if laminated safety glass was original to your 6C, particularly if it is curved. In this period, laminated safety glass started to become de rigeur in front windscreens for volume production but generally not elsewhere throughout the <automated commercial link?>car.

All the best,

John
 

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The first appearances of Michelotti

Cars with head lamps styles like these were only in fashion for a very brief period. Not later than 1947. Because of what was going on in the world at the time, only very few cars were built (let alone survived) and as far to my knowledge actually all of them were one-offs ('fuoriserie').

The styling of these cars was sometimes contributed to count Mario Revelli de Beaumont, mostly because of his established name at the time. But .. it is very likely that it is the young Giovanni Michelotti, who worked at Stabilimenti Farina at the time. The Lancia Aprilia featured in the ad is without doubt designed by the latter.

I own one of these survivors: a (January) 1946 Lancia Aprilia convertible by Stabilimenti Farina, which made a public appearance in Laussane, Switzerland in October 1946 at the Exposition de la Mode Italienne. See picture.
It is definately designed by Michelotti and therefore probably the oldest car contributed to him that is still in excistence.
It reappeared some years ago in Argentina and most of its history is still unknown.
 

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Cars with head lamps styles like these were only in fashion for a very brief period. Not later than 1947. Because of what was going on in the world at the time, only very few cars were built (let alone survived) and as far to my knowledge actually all of them were one-offs ('fuoriserie').

The styling of these cars was sometimes contributed to count Mario Revelli de Beaumont, mostly because of his established name at the time. But .. it is very likely that it is the young Giovanni Michelotti, who worked at Stabilimenti Farina at the time. The Lancia Aprilia featured in the ad is without doubt designed by the latter.

I own one of these survivors: a (January) 1946 Lancia Aprilia convertible by Stabilimenti Farina, which made a public appearance in Laussane, Switzerland in October 1946 at the Exposition de la Mode Italienne. See picture.
It is definately designed by Michelotti and therefore probably the oldest car contributed to him that is still in excistence.
It reappeared some years ago in Argentina and most of its history is still unknown.

I agree it is Michelotti, but what actual coachbuilder (he worked for many). I think it is rather ugly. IMO some of Michelotti's designs are beautiful, but some are really ugly...
 

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Thanks to mcarpedi, great collector of postcards, I have find the mystery Alfa who that seems sold to Sondrio zone, after the 1953 (See the most modern of cars parked: Fiat 1100/103).
Unfortunately, the plate is not legible and the mystery Alfa remains... a mystery !!
 

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Corrado, thanks for the new and interesting photos.
My opinion is this car is a Boneschi, clearly designed by Michelotti. I can confirm he made some drawings for this coachbuilder too.
 

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Discussion Starter #89
Thanks bellabarbas.
What wonderful pictures from Napoli.
I do have a wish, are you able to copy to a larger size. I will give a better opportunity to evolve.
If you don't, have this ability.
Then is Carlo, who came up with the picture in 2007.
Carlo is a wizard in manipulating pictures, and brings things up by magnifying things in pictures. Not that I mean that the car in question is manipulated.
My humble opinion, is still that it is produce by Monviso.
Monviso merge red with Ghia in 1955. The car in question is probably, older. But the relation to Ghia is confirmed by the merger.
Boano took over Ghia in the 40ties.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
Hello to you all.
It seems that it is still a mystery.
I got the booklet from ASI “Vignale con Michelotti Designer”
In there is this drawing from 1947.
Just an indication of a possible cloud.
 

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Because i'm the Michelotti's archive curator i can confirm you that this Fiat 500 hasn't anything to do with the Alfa in the postcard, just a vague reseamblance. That Alfa has the typical lines of the period Studebakers which influenced the Italian Style in 1946/47, especially the roof. The relation to Ghia hasn't any sense here, it happened 10 years later.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
"The relation to Ghia hasn't any sense here, it happened 10 years later."
Please give an explanation, on you comment to Ghia.

I put this drawing in as an example of the 3 box design . On which the Studebaker – the Alfa- and several Lancia’s has used as design principle
The Studebaker in this design came in 1947. So maybe Michelotti or Vignale made some thoughts.
And neither of them has been mentioned in this tread, as possible fathers to Carlos mystery Alfa, so for me this drawing shoved that they had done the thinking.
Nothing else.
 

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Hard to give you a concise reply here, i have to write a book about it....

First at all, we have to split the discussion in 2 categories: designer, who designs the car; coachbuilder, who builds the car. Ghia, Vignale, Boneschi, Monviso, Boano, etc. built cars; Michelotti, Frua, Revelli, Bianco, Martinengo, etc. designed cars. It's a coincidence that Frua and Michelotti, in 2 different periods had also their own coachworks. But it's not a coincidence that Michelotti designed cars for all the firm i mentioned before. And it's not a coincidence that Revelli, Frua and Michelotti, influenced each other, because they had the same idea of the style and because they worked together in a precise period.
So excluding Frua, because he never worked for Boneschi, and Michelotti too, because he was involved with the Turin companies in that period, my theory is that Revelli designed the Carlos' Alfa (the car in the first post of this thread.)
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Frua was independent produser on more than one period.

To me it’s very difficult to believe that Mario Revelli de Beauemont should have designed the Alfa.
If this alfa I produced in the beginning of the 50ties . He was working for GM in the States. And the first , just from my memory. He made the first 3 box designs for Sinca the 1300/1500 in the beginning of the 60ties..
So to follow that line will be a goose hunt, in my opinion
 

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Alfa Romeo delivered to Boneschi the last 6C2500 chassis on February 1949. Why you're talking about the Alfa production of the 50s, while the car in the matter is a car bodied in the 40s? Moreover, Revelli went to GM on 1952. The 3 box design isn't the argument of this thread, because the car in the photo at the beginning of the thread has the mother-in-law extra seat.
You can have a different opinion, it's not a problem for me, but there is a little bit of confusion here....
 

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Discussion Starter #96
Hello to you all.
Long time no see.
I found these pictures in my Christmas gift
“The Encyclopedia of Italian Coachbuilders” by Alessandro Sannia,
I do hope you like them.
The first is a poster from Carrozzeria Monviso
The other is from a Milanese Carrozzeria
Taglioli & Granata
 

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