So much for CU's writing that the new Giulia would be very substandard in reliability. Their anti-Italian bias shows.

 

You got that right Del. My Ti has over 14,000mi and it has been perfect. As I've stated previously if I want to buy a toaster I'll consult CU.

 

The trouble with the CU reliability surveys is that they are voluntary, not blind, don't represent all who own any given vehicle. As is usual, people with problems complain, but those who don't have problems usually never volunteer info. Thus the surveys can become pretty distorted. CU doesn't seem to recognize this.

Good for dishwashers maybe, but not vehicles.

 

The important take away is that it bested all of the German rivals in "quality" :grin2:

I'd like to see what their survey criteria are, tho...

 

 

Reliability vs service

I own a Q4 Ti Sport and a QV. The Q4 has been fantastic. The QV not so much. What's driving me away from Alfa is the complete hassle the service side of the equation has been. I'm either ignored, or get non answers and non resolutions. Nobody seems to be excited or care about the product on the other side of the dealership. Perhaps that's because their time is measured in minutes while the car is under warranty. They're not paid to care, so they don't.

 

What's driving me away from Alfa is the complete hassle the service side of the equation has been. I'm either ignored, or get non answers and non resolutions. Nobody seems to be excited or care about the product on the other side of the dealership. Perhaps that's because their time is measured in minutes while the car is under warranty. They're not paid to care, so they don't.

Dealership service departments is where many mechanics start their careers. The way they get paid encourages them to rush, and there is high turn over. The result is you end up with mostly inexperienced techs, and the ones that shouldn't even be in the profession haven't been weeded out yet. Any given dealership probably only has one or two good techs, and they are overworked.

This isn't something unique to Alfa; it's a problem for pretty much every marque. Some like Toyota have implemented processes that mitigate these issues fairly well, however... FIAT and Alfa have never understood how to implement a US dealership network, and I don't really expect them to do better this time around.

I have considered the legal option but before I do, I require data. Such data is obtained on a hydraulically linked dynamometer. Such dynamometers are rare. The Alfa will limit itself if it realizes the front wheels aren't turning at the same rate as the rear wheels, and with the RWD Quadrifoglio, such a dyno is mandatory. If my trade-in offer is beyond my acceptable loss criteria, and I find no buyers on the private sale market which is most likely, then I may stick to my guns and find a legal resolution to this mess. But again I digress, I need data before I have anything upon which to stand on.

A 4 wheel dyno doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary. From what I've heard these cars vary a lot in their performance; probably due to the semi-hand built nature of them. Comparing two cars won't be enough to show a trend.

Another problem is a dyno can definitely show the difference in curves between two cars, but I suspect most of the difference you're feeling would be in throttle response/behavior, mid range performance, and "other stuff". There's so much to the overall driving experience that a dyno can't show.

I just don't want you to spend a bunch of money on dyno testing and be disappointed.

 

Patrick, it seems they want you taste the feeling of Italy. Historically here it's the same.
BTW, the worst, nastiest service in my local experience is BMW.
And the sole Mercedes I drove was the most problematic car ever owned.

That's why in our family garage there are automatic Toyota IQ and Suzuki Splash too as "tenders". This is a nautical example https://www.ligurianautica.com/eventi-e-fiere/come-ti-piego-in-due-il-tender-extender/36140/

Do you know this movie?

 

Carbon on the valves! True that. Needs an Italian tune-up.
I have a one year old 2018 Giulia Q4. NOT ONE PROBLEM. Running the Eurocompulsion ecu Phase One tune with the V1 intake and stock exhaust. No louder than stock, but lot's more power.

 

No I haven't seen that film, but it looks funny! It's sad that the euro companies have such disdain for the consumer. It's cost Alfa this family. I have $140k worth of Alfa products on my property and they'll be gone in a couple of weeks. Yes, I'm taking a huge loss on them but I don't care. I'll be glad to be rid of the abandonment, the indifference, the complete lack of support. They had a chance at remaking themselves again but they didn't learn from their experience 30 years ago. It's the same old same old. I thought it would be fun and exciting but the only one feeling that way was me. Once I drove off the lot, it was *crickets* when I looked back to the hype, the glory, the bravado. Such a complex machine and Alfa doesn't even equip their techs to understand it. Everything is a secret. I don't even think Alfa understands their own product. Probably why Ferrari was keen to remove themselves from the circus that is Alfa Romeo. Not only have I as a consumer abandoned Alfa Romeo, I have also abandoned every company linked with their marque, and likely all Euro brands as well. I have never been a Chrysler fan either and this nails the coffin lid shut as far as they're concerned. Alfa, stai ascoltando?

 

I follow the Giulia and Stelvio forums.
Smells like troll to me.

 

I'm no troll. I actually own two Alfas and have just had a really bad experience with the dealer I purchased them from. What must I do to convince you that I'm legit? I'm an actual consumer. The guy Alfa was trying to target. This is a very real, honest, heart felt response from someone dead center in the segment they were trying to target. Don't penalize me for telling the world what's going on. Our Q4 Ti Sport has been awesome. The Quad not so much. It's my dealing with the dealerships (yes more than one) that's soured the experience for me to the extent of wanting out.

 

Furthermore, I really wanted this to work. I bought into the resurrection of the brand. I put my money where my mouth was. But a year into it, I've just been overwhelmed by that horrible sinking feeling that I get when I need support and there is none. The sheer incompetence of the service department(s) is overwhelming when I look at how much I have invested in the brand.

 

Sorry for your distress.

What problems did you have where you ended up dissatisfied with the dealers? We hear your complaints but we do not know what led to your dissatisfaction. What were you really expecting specifically. Certainly not saying you might be a bad customer, there are those which every dealership dreads, as there are bad dealers we have all come across and that we as owners dread, but what were the circumstances, ie, what were you requesting, and what did they not do to address those concerns? Where do you live, where these dealers exist?

You do say the Q4 Ti Sport has been fine, but what really specifically led you to abandon the entire scene, en total. As one of many who are considering in some way a possible future purchase, I am interested in some details.

 

I had around 1/3 to 1/4 tank in my Quad. Went around a long sweeping left curve at some velocity. I didn't notice anything amiss until we stopped for gas at the next exit. I noticed the DNA was disabled and I was in limp mode. This was 428 or so miles total on the car. We were 240 miles from home at this point. Made it home and then drove another 130 miles to the dealership where I left the car for several weeks. They had cleared the codes and restored DNA to the car. When I retrieved the car, it was functional but it wasn't the same. It's not been the same car I purchased since the incident at 428 miles. When I inquired further they say it's fine. When the Alfa customer care folks call me I tell them, they advise me to contact another dealer. I call them. Speak briefly and he'll call me back. No further contact. I call back and leave a message, no response. Tell customer care and they work on it but haven't heard a thing back from them either. I would simply like the car I purchased and perchance speak with someone as passionate about the technical details as I am. Nope. So I have about 80% of the car I purchased and nobody seems to care. I need to feel supported in this major purchase, and this venture into the unknown. Leave me adrift and alone and I'll start looking for an exit strategy.
I had sold my wife on this idea when I purchased her Q4 Ti Sport and now she looks at me like I'm some kind of fool. She's right in her assessment. This whole experience has left me reeling and wanting to return to zero as fast as I can and leave this whole excursion into the realm of the unreal behind. Had I been supported, even a little, then things would have been a lot different. Left unto my own like this, adrift in the dark leaves my thoughts to grind on me at will, and I can't wait to undo the huge mistake I made by buying into Alfa last February.

 

So no problems with the four banger Ti, but some sort of problem with the Quad? They detuned the Quad a little to make it run correctly, but not with the verve you thought you had purchased and experienced? Is that what you are saying? What were the changes in the driving experiences you say made the car not the one you bought?

Did you discuss this with the factory, not a local dealer? I've done this with Alfa in the past with an earlier model, and they bent over backwards to help, solving my problem?

Have you given thought that you might have rushed into the decision to bail completely? I mean, I know of several people with higher end Japanese cars who have ended up distressed with their dealerships as well. It does happen. Eventually it can usually get worked out.

Regardless, sorry to hear that you are bailing out of the marque. I've found it and the dealers I've dealt with through the last 4+ decades mostly a decent pleasure, even with the occasional completely duff dealer.

 

No the Q4 Ti Sport has been spot on the whole time. As for my quad, yes it seems as if they erased the fuel and timing maps when they cleared the codes. It's plenty fast but it doesn't have the same fervor, the same passion it had on the drive home from purchase. It's lost its personality. It's as if it's a muted version of it's prior self yet nobody seems to care. They say they escalated it to some high Alfa factory level but even at that, the end result is the same and nobody wants to talk to me regarding this. I have nobody to refer to. I can go to some high end private tuner shop at insane $$/hr rates but understand, I'm not independently wealthy. I have a good job, and I'm responsible with my money however I don't have money to burn. I work every day for a paycheck and this whole experience has me spooked.
I have looked into finding a way to interface with the onboard computer to map these things myself but Alfa has them locked out. So again, I'm at the mercy of those who don't or won't care. My will to fight has limits and I believe they have been reached with this ordeal almost a year on now.

 

So, it ended up not driving the same as another Quad? Since these cars are all software controlled now, they must have used a different set of algorithms in the computers to prevent a re-occurence of the original problem? It is kind of a crazy driving car in any case.

That's why I ask whether or not it drives the same as the cars coming out now from dealerships. That, in fact, that particular model you bought was "overtuned", so to speak? That others who now buy the car find it drives the same as what you have now? I know there have been a lot of software upgrades and changes in these cars, as happens with many different makes and models. You did contact the factory about this, bypassing the dealership, as I've done?

Please forgive my questions, as I do not mean to be critical, just very curious, being an Alfa owner for over 40 years, and considering perhaps a Giulia of some sort in the future. Always hate to see people rush into things, even after the time you have spent pursuing this.

 

The car I did a test drive in, and the car I ultimately purchased were both fire breathers. The dealership did offer to have me come back and do a comparison drive with one of their Quads but again, that's 130 miles away and I'm not keen on putting miles and miles on my car for willy nilly tests. My car and the test car were identical last year. I would be interested in doing that new comparison but the timing hasn't presented itself for the opportunity yet. Nevertheless, I know that my car is substantially less than it was when I purchased it and all I'm after are some answers. Some real answers, with data, and an intelligent response. What I do for a living is very akin to tuning something like an Alfa or Ferrari so coddling me with non-responses has gained little traction with me, and has only reinforced the idea that they have no idea what they're doing hence any further involvement on my part is a waste of time. Prove me wrong? Have some petrol head from Alfa call me and talk shop? Involve me and my investment in a community of like minded folks who care little for money and live for the passion and excitement of the physics behind such an achievement? Yes! Coddle me like a fool and I'll find the exit.

 

And no, I don't mind the questions one bit. I actually find this quite therapeutic to have found an outlet of like minded folks to express my pent-up frustrations... not necessarily in a rantlike fashion, although it is, but rather in a co-miseration quality, a fraternity if you will. A fraternal network of support from both aggressor and victim perspectives -lol. There shall be a balance found amidst the chaos I'm sure.

 

I think that you'd have to talk with a lawyer who focus his professional activity on consumer rights. Any of your activity on any Alfa forums should be focused into find people with your same precise problem to help all for an eventual class action prosecution.
I did in this way when had a serious problem with Range Rover producer many years ago. After little months they refunded me acceptably. Then I stayed away from them forever.
I am sorried if my comment above upset you. It was not my intention.

 

Oh no, your response didn't upset me in any way whatsoever. I ingratiated myself to the challenging questions and provoking thoughts. I have considered the legal option but before I do, I require data. Such data is obtained on a hydraulically linked dynamometer. Such dynamometers are rare. The Alfa will limit itself if it realizes the front wheels aren't turning at the same rate as the rear wheels, and with the RWD Quadrifoglio, such a dyno is mandatory. If my trade-in offer is beyond my acceptable loss criteria, and I find no buyers on the private sale market which is most likely, then I may stick to my guns and find a legal resolution to this mess. But again I digress, I need data before I have anything upon which to stand on.

 

The "coddle me like a fool" comment was paraphrased in reference to the way the dealership service departments have dealt with me. It wasn't referencing our conversation at all, if that was what you were concerned about. No worries!

 

Can you only imagine a new Quadrifoglio with a Pagani reworking? The simplicity, the beauty, the ease of maintenance.... a true driver's car. Ferrari hints at this with their Scuderia. The Alfa would benefit with such a lesson. It would take the pinnacle of the marque if they produced such a thing. And above all, make the damned thing easy to maintenance as most of us that love driving also love to turn a wrench.

 

" The dealership did offer to have me come back and do a comparison drive with one of their Quads but again, that's 130 miles away and I'm not keen on putting miles and miles on my car for willy nilly tests"

I guess I would offer, as an engineer, that the test would not be "willy nilly" but a straight driving experience comparison of what is being offered these days now and what you have. That is the best non-science test you could be given, to see just how the new car feels compared to what you have, other than actual recorded times, etc. I do think that the feel one gets when driving such an enthusiast car is pretty subjective after a few miles, in that like buying tv sets, the differences in picture quality fade with time. Yeah, there may be a slight difference in times, etc, but the differences in performance of the car ends up relatively undetectable with time.

The dealership IS offering to let you do the comparison, as they should. You could give them that.

Is there a possibility that they have to tune all of the new cars similar to what you have now? That the factory was "over-reaching" in what they were actually selling to the public in the beginning?

Still, I can understand being peeved. I've run across very duff dealers in different parts of the country, most of them back east compared to those out west, for some reason. I never figured out the reason, but I can say, I've also dealt with some very good dealers who listened and accommodated my wishes when they could.

 

I am keen on doing this comparison test however now isn't the best of timing for such a thing to occur. I advised them that spring would be the best time to schedule such a test. I haven't heard a peep from them since. The car may very well be traded off prior to then as well. As an aside, I have made some conjecture over what had occurred with the incident at 428 miles. When they cleared the codes and reset the system, they wiped everything, including what the car had leaned as far as tuning maps. I've fed it a diet of non ethanol premium since then and it has slowly hinted at regaining it's previous fervor. Speaking with a tuner friend of mine, he said other cars sometimes require 800 to 1000 miles to learn their proper mapping curves, which I am nearly there. So the dealership guys could be truthful in saying that "it's fine", not realizing that recovering from a prefrontal lobotomy takes time in this particular model. Only time will tell.

 

And the driving test is purely subjective. What I'm trying to gauge are subtleties in the experience and judging by my prior experience with these gentlemen, I don't believe them capable of perceiving. So it's much ado about nothing to them. Hence my need for actual hard raw data that they can't brush aside as mere conjecture. Therefore the dynamometer test would be the ultimate scorecard to reference against the numbers published by Alfa, and experienced by me the first 428 miles of my ownership of the car. Numbers don't lie. Subjective tests even under the best of circumstances, could.