It's hard to tell from the video, but it sounds and looks like your cam timing is still off and the valves are clipping each other. Need another photo of the timing marks at TDC. Also, pull a spark plug and watch / look for clipping.

 

@4sfed I will look for clipping tonight. My timing marks all line up but im thinking my tdc pointer is off on the crank. I had the pointer removed a while back and when reinstalling i used the not so accurate method using a wooden dowel in cyl 1 to find tdc then adjust the pointer. Last night i bought a dial gauge and spark plug adapter to do a more accurate reading so i can see how far off i am.

 

put your engine at TDC very slowly (by hand), then disconnect the timing chain and remove the camshafts.

You will see, by the spark plug hole, if one of the valve isn't closed.

let us know.

 

put your engine at TDC very slowly (by hand), then disconnect the timing chain and remove the camshafts.

You will see, by the spark plug hole, if one of the valve isn't closed.


let us know.

Aren’t all the valves going to be sprung shut with cams removed?

that noise sounds scary, I’d start over. The orientation of the cams look pretty close,
did you move the crank at all when the cams were off? Did you achieve TDC before removing? There’s technically 2 TDC’s I’m sure you’re aware of, you want the compression TDC (both valves closed on #1) not the exhaust TDC ( exhaust valve open/ closing)

I hear that knock at every full opening of intake valve starting with 3-4-2-1 (you can see them in the video), they may be scraping the piston to make that sound, doubt it would be the exhaust valve. I think the crank is behind by one or two teeth with your cams and need to be further down the hole with the intake valve fully open IMO

 

it appears the valves are opening and closing as they should. It is kind of hard to tell what’s touching what just by peering down the spark plug hole. To play it safe im going to start from zero.

My tdc dial gauge adapter should be in this weekend so i can finely dial in my tdc pointer…. Im pretty sure im way off when i initially set my tdc. I was probably more like “off dead center” or “5/8ths dead center.”

My dad came by for a visit today when i got off work, so for science- i had him try to find tdc with a wooden dowel. After a few tries he pin pointed it to what he felt was the top of the piston stroke and sure enough his position was way different than mine.

As soon as the dial gauge set up arrives, we are making bets to see who was closer to tdc.

 

If one of the valves is not closing, because it is now bent (due to touching the other valve) you will find that the valve clearance is now looser ... easier than removing camshafts.

Could it be because you have a dry camshaft and followers, and the noise is due to the valve clearances and maybe the follower's sticking, shims flopping about, etc.
Pete
ps: I'd never turn camshafts without lubricating the followers, but I have OCD

 

@PSk I thought about it being dry, but i did add some oil on the shims, under the bucket, on the bucket, and cam right before all this…..how ever since i have been turning it over by hand hundreds of times trying to get things aligned and the shoulder screws in- it could have lost most of its lubrication???? I will check my clearances tomorrow and try dumping oil on the cams and see what happens

 

Could you redo the video without using a ratchet, as the ratchet noise makes it hard to hear

Pete

 

Just for info, and to help some others in case.

The TDC can be found precisely by using only a screwdriver. I did it dozens of times, by the roadside, when I was tuning cars and I wasn’t sure about the original TDC.

How do we do it?:
We put the screwdriver in the spark plug socket of cylinder 1, when the piston is rising. We keep the screwdriver vertical. We turn by hand (ratchet on pulley or engine stopped engaged with the 4th speed). The screwdriver will start sticking out of the spark plug hole.
When the screwdriver is in its highest position, the piston and the motor are at TDC.

We check that it is the 'true' TDC by checking with a small flathead screwdriver that the valves of cylinder 1 are well closed.
How is it done?:
Gently slide the screwdriver along the spark plug thread, and at the niveua of the valve, the screwdriver does not encounter an area where to catch on. The valve is therefore closed.

Then you can check the position of the crankshaft pulley and its landmarks. But it’s your TDC that must be right, I saw so many pulleys with reengraved markers, added, fake, etc... your TDC implies the right position of the camshafts and pulley, nothing else and not vice versa.

(my 2 cents of course)

 

Here, in the workshop, I'm using the correct tools to confirm the TDC, but the screwdriver method is really great.

 

Here, in the workshop, I'm using the correct tools to confirm the TDC, but the screwdriver method is really great.

View attachment 1896075

The only problem with the screwdriver method is that there's a "dead zone" around TDC where you can turn the engine a few degrees either side and the piston doesn't move because the crank journal is moving sideways not up and down.

The correct way to do this is with a dial gauge as you have here and take a reading either side of TDC to give a fixed height of the piston. Mark these two places on the pulley where you have the same piston height before and after TDC and the spot in the middle of those is correct TDC.

 

@ SigmaGTV

now, if you remove your camshafts, you must have all the valves closed.

for your noise, there can be a cam follower that makes this noise. but hard to see/hear not being in front of the car.
for info, on an engine I had a new spring valve which broke after a few kilometers (manufacturing defect).

 

You can find true TDC easily and accurately with a piston stop.

 

One important thing no one has mentioned. Did you check that you where at tdc on number 1 or 4 cylinder?
If the distributor was pointing at 4 and you timed the cams with the front lobes pointing out. Then your 180 degrees out of time.

 

One important thing no one has mentioned. Did you check that you where at tdc on number 1 or 4 cylinder?
If the distributor was pointing at 4 and you timed the cams with the front lobes pointing out. Then your 180 degrees out of time.

it was mentioned on his previous related thread

https://www.alfabb.com/threads/cam-timing-is-off-a-bit.744703/?post_id=8987993#post-8987993

 

@Gubi @Cobraboy @PSk @pescara

minor update. My dial adapter will not be in until next week sometime, however i was able to find this.

i took the cams and buckets off today. Reoiled everything. Using this tdc spring gauge, Got to the top of the stroke, marked it. Went backwards, marked it. Adjusted the pointer to the middle between both points. I know this would be better done with the dial guage. I will be getting a piston stop too to try out. Connect the cams to the chain at their witness marks aligned. Re checked tdc at crank and cams, everything in sync.

the clicking remains but now sounds like it’s mostly coming from the front of the engine.

 

here is a video i recorded after starting over today. The clunk at 33 seconds was me hitting my breaker bar against something. No ratchet noise this time so you might hear the clicking sound better.

 

Probably a silly comment, but the joining link is not catching the front cover or something?

Pete

 

Did look for that as far as i could tell nothing is hitting

 

Not really obvious.

Not a little work, but the best to solve the problem : you put it on the TDC, you remove your cylinder head.
You take it apart and check all the parts. (always my 2 cents)

 

anything on lower chain/gear that might be clicking?
the gear itself down there look OK ...they are known to crack (albeit rarely) around the woodruff key?

have you got a mechanical tach on the WP?....any click coming from that?

 

I did look down there a bore scope, as far as i could looks ok but still hard to determine without having the engine out and front cover off. No mechanical tach on this car, we can rule that out.

 

@pescara i did consider pulling the head and getting it rebuilt or buying one of the rebuilt ones from centerline, of course after finding the true tdc for the crank. This might be my cue to get that refreshed hopped up engine ive always wanted…… or a twin spark lol.

im pretty sure there is a bent valve that i had probably caused either when the intake cam had tightened itself when turning the motor and the valves had hit. Or, when i had the cams 180 deg out when setting tdc (totally my fault and i knew the correct orientation before hand). Recalling when my cams were 180 deg out, it did seem a little harder to turn the engine by hand possibly damaging valves………… i swear im my own worst enemy sometimes. It what get for staying up late working on my car. Any have a running engine for sale i can drop right in my car lol.

 

If s valve is bent even slightly the clearance will be bigger.
Have you rechecked your valve clearance?

 

Oh yes for got to mention that i did. My inake side is .019 and exhaust at .021 which is what i measured before putting the tc back on…… maybe there is hope?!?!?.

 

a mystery in any case ...

 

A mystery indeed

 

Thank you to everyone who is helping out. Your advice has been helpful.

I’m starting over again. The cams are on the work bench. Looking down through the spark plug holes- from the top straight down looks like the valves are all shut as they should be with the cams off. However, when looking at the exhaust valves from the the intake side at an angle, it looks as though they are not shut all the way. You can prominently see the valve edge in cyl 1&2. Barley see it in cyl 3. And partly see the valve edge in cyl 4. When looking at the intake valves at and angle they are not visible being definitely closed. Is this normal for 2L. To me it seems they are not closed all the way.

 

Time to take the cylinder head off unfortunately

Pete

 

Yes unfortunately, but on the bright side this engine could use the refresh. I don’t know who worked on the engine before but last time i had it out when i rebuilt the transmission, i found all kind of things wrong. Lots of jaw marks from a vice grip on the crank and cams, the valve clearences were for the bosch spec not spica, rtv only instead if a proper gasket, misc poor electrical work, and the list goes on and on

I guess i might consider to rebuild the bottom end too? Compression was at 150 psi in all 4 cyl just before for all this.

 

You could try one of two things. Take the upper chain out and just do a compression test.
Or with the cams out you could easily do a leak down test. This is the one I would do. Gives the most accurate results.

 

my intake maifold is off. How much might that effect my pressure results?

 

if you remove the exhaust manifold you could shine a flash light through the spark plug holes and see how much light comes through the exhaust ports. Doesn’t sound right if you think they’re partially open with cam removed. Do the exhaust buckets look uniform at the same level ? Remove the buckets,check out the stems, super loose?

 

The buckets look uniform. The stems feel tight no play. Still mysterious. I will remove the exhaust manifold tomorrow. Im guessing it might be slightly bent enough to cause binding in the valve guide where there is still tension making things seem tight.