[kobbi]

so after enjoing reading all this nice trad what do i need to install if any at all :
i have an1994 164 super 3.0 v6 24v manual.
kn in box filter
big intake but not the biggest (was 39 mm and now from 156 2.5 v6 it is 42 mm but not 45 as the Q has)
no qatlizator, removed it.
ngk pfr6b platinum as the original one
10w60 syntetic agip race oil.

1. dont thuch
2. replace ingector with ??

thanks very much

 

[155Dude]

No problem.

Actually for people in the US, if these injectors do produce a finer spray pattern that would be a nice upgrade leaving all else alone. Lower emissions, lower fuel consumption, more power...

Exactly.

I've tested it with E10 gasoline, because it's the de-facto standard now and ubiquitous. The consumption goes down to about the same level as normal and the car still runs great to the extend that it's not worth the effort and miles to search for E85 when you're not in your native area where you have a proper source for it.

Other than that, the car also runs great on E85, so however the future of fuels may present itself, the car is able to handle it, which was also something I was interested in to examine. After all, we want to keep our Alfas for a long time and if we can adapt to future changes without something like bottled additives like you'd need to cope for absence of lead or in this case an adjacent ECU with a nasty harness to make our Alfas run on different fuels, our lives get easier and we can have a hassle-free operation of the cars for a longer time.

I just picked the wrong car to test these things, because it's too new already. Something with an M1.7 setup would've been better.

so after enjoing reading all this nice trad what do i need to install if any at all :
i have an1994 164 super 3.0 v6 24v manual.
kn in box filter
big intake but not the biggest (was 39 mm and now from 156 2.5 v6 it is 42 mm but not 45 as the Q has)
no qatlizator, removed it.
ngk pfr6b platinum as the original one
10w60 syntetic agip race oil.

1. dont thuch
2. replace ingector with ??

thanks very much

0 280 156 038 is the modern replacement for the 150 701 which you can find new and even order at Fiat (60665644), as some of the EV1 injectors are out of production already or availability is limited.

If you don't need to, then you don't have to, though, that's up to you.

 

[kobbi]

Exactly.

I've tested it with E10 gasoline, because it's the de-facto standard now and ubiquitous. The consumption goes down to about the same level as normal and the car still runs great to the extend that it's not worth the effort and miles to search for E85 when you're not in your native area where you have a proper source for it.

Other than that, the car runs good on E85, so however the future of fuels may present itself, the car is able to handle it, which was also something I was interested in to examine. After all, we want to keep our Alfas for a long time and if we can adapt to future changes without something like bottled additives like you'd need to cope for absence of lead or similar things to make our Alfas run on different fuels, our lives get easier and we can have a hassle-free operation of the cars for a longer time.

I just picked the wrong car to test these things, because it's too new already. Something with an M1.7 setup would've been better.


0 280 156 038 is the modern replacement for the 150 701 which you can find new and even order at Fiat (60665644), as some of the EV1 injectors are out of production already or availability is limited.

If you don't need to, then you don't have to, though, that's up to you.

yes youare right now i have the bosch 0280150701 injectors which are 250cc
so i looked for the 0280156038 theyare only 229 cc ?? and are not cheep.
if i change mine to the new one i will get better full economy with more power ?
is ther an online place for buying 6 of them with good price ? any volvo one that are the same ??
thanks

 

[TS888]

hi
please report and allso what 164 do you have and what serial nem are the new injectors

Finally getting close to reassembling the intake. Injectors are number 280 150 556. IIRC they are a Ford V8 fitment. The form factor and color are identical to my OEM injectors, but they have the multi-hole nozzle rather than a single hole.

The car is a 1991 164B 3 liter.

I'll report how the car runs.

 

[155Dude]

yes youare right now i have the bosch 0280150701 injectors which are 250cc
so i looked for the 0280156038 theyare only 229 cc ?? and are not cheep.
if i change mine to the new one i will get better full economy with more power ?
is ther an online place for buying 6 of them with good price ? any volvo one that are the same ??
thanks

150 701 are 226ccm at 3 bars/43.5 PSI, 156 038 are 224.4ccm at 3 bars.
= both are 225±1ccm.

The Volvo alternative is 0 280 155 832, but they're a little bit larger (235ccm) - whatever that implies. As far as I can tell, they also need a new notch cut on the 24V like I did in my installation report.

---

I also took my laptop to the car yesterday, and the ECU had zero errors stored over about 800mi with the larger injectors, E85 and some close to undiluted E10. Ergo, everything is well within the range of the lambda correction here.

 

[155Dude]

So here it is for Grant:

1) The power is generally the same, but the trottle response is quicker.
Gasoline (E5 actually):

E85 with Volvo injectors:

Do note that these readings are probably imprecise, though. Spark advance is -5.75-6°, which seems to be the hard limit. The engine also feels like it wants to develop more power, but is throttled. If you floor the gas, the car takes off great but quickly recovers to default. What I see also here is that on gasoline, it fluctuates around the limiter (aka it has barely enough fuel to reach it), while on E85, it sticks to the torque limiter, and that's probably what feels like more power.

At all times the engine management ECU of the ME-Motronic models the engine's instantaneous torque development, adjusting the throttle opening according to the relationship between the requested and developed torque.

= You can do whatever the heck you want, the power won't change as the ECU closes the throttle on you. On a older Alfas with the pedal linked via a cable to the throttle, it'll just unleash any additional power like it's supposed to.

The readings are at the lower end of the ±5% that are legally allowed, and I'm technically free to touch the torque map to produce 162.75HP at 6500RPM (178Nm) with a max. torque of 196Nm at 3500RPM as long as I don't change the emissions (by touching the actual fuel maps). That is exactly what the two remaps I'm aware of state to offer, so I might have the torque map rewritten if I find someone who'd like to do it.

Then there was the concern about the prolonged driving at higher speeds:

I can only speak for the 156 here, but the lambda correction even works when driving constantly at 6000RPM.

At your average 2000-2500RPM, the lambda correction works perfectly:

The "self-adjusting FRA parameter" and the "FRA factors" for high and low load (the ones I was referring to before) were 1.06 and 1.03, whatever that means. Most other people have like .9999998, so at least it works.

Consumption in Maniac-Mode is about 15-16 litres on 100km, or 15-16MPG. I drove about 800 miles mostly highway last week and I kept two receipts where I wrote down the distance, one mixed highway and city prior to the trip and one highway only, both state 42 liters on 355km or 20MPG. On gasoline, I did about 25MPG under the same conditions.

As stated earlier, I did put about 20 liters of E10 into the completely empty tank to report that it works fine (which it does), but it took me about 5 minutes to plan the trip with E85 gas stations in mind.

 

[robvolz]

I have a 164 with the 3.0 24V.
Of course I am required to buy premium gas.

Here in Oregon, we don't have a lot of E-85 available. But, I do see that changing in the future.

My question, and the reason I'm considering this:
If I change out my single injectors to the 4 hole, can I use a cheaper grade of gas (regular) ? This would pay for itself over a quick time since I drive a hell of a lot.

 

[155Dude]

If you indeed need Premium (which is what Alfa says), it means that E85 is already economically viable in some states (Illinois [some places here have a price spread of 41%, so you're more than even and the whole state is full of E85 gas stations], Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Nebraska, New York, Michigan - in that order).

The problem with the gas quality is ignition related and can't be corrected via modifications in the fuel supply (at least not in the scope of what I'm blathering about), so it's either Premium or something with Ethanol. The 24V have a knocking sensor and may or may not work on medium or regular.

E85 Prices Oregon

There's some gas stations mostly in Portland, but there's just one price reported which may or may not be representative. Look up the E85 price of local gas stations when you're their area and see whether it's less expensive.

 

[robvolz]

Whoa. Not one public gas station in Portland sells E-85. Not for me.

 

[TS888]

Oregon doesn't grow corn, so no one gives a rip about ethanol fuel. No demand = no supply.

[soapbox]
The existing infrastructure for distribution of petroleum fuels currently does not have the capacity to easily take on ethanol fuels -- most gas stations have only 3 tanks, 4 if they sell diesel. Likewise on number of pumps. Where does the ethanol blend go? And of course, ethanol can cause some hoses and seals to deteriorate, so equipment must be surveyed and certified.

All of this is why congress has "authorized" distribution of ethanol fuels, not mandated it. On the other hand, they have mandated the production of ethanol, and the production of ethanol blend fuel. This is because they were lobbied mercilessly by corporate agribusiness, and because they don't bother to ask the right people the right questions.
[/soapbox]

 

[kobbi]

I have a 164 with the 3.0 24V.
Of course I am required to buy premium gas.

Here in Oregon, we don't have a lot of E-85 available. But, I do see that changing in the future.

My question, and the reason I'm considering this:
If I change out my single injectors to the 4 hole, can I use a cheaper grade of gas (regular) ? This would pay for itself over a quick time since I drive a hell of a lot.

i havesame car and in israel we have to options 95 octan which is like normal here and 98 octan which is like premuime.
i drive 19 years on normal no problem at all. you dont need primume.

 

[Richard2]

robvolz...If your desire is to save money on fuel, install a propane conversion kit...it's bi fuel...propane or gasoline

 

[veloce49]

Isn't it also true that ethanol based gas does not travel as well? Must be used relatively quickly? Seems I recall reading that somewhere.

 

[155Dude]

[soapbox]
The existing infrastructure for distribution of petroleum fuels currently does not have the capacity to easily take on ethanol fuels -- most gas stations have only 3 tanks, 4 if they sell diesel. Likewise on number of pumps. Where does the ethanol blend go? And of course, ethanol can cause some hoses and seals to deteriorate, so equipment must be surveyed and certified.
[/soapbox]

My local gas station replaced the Supreme pump (AKI 93) with E85, as nobody would buy that stuff anyways.

Whoa. Not one public gas station in Portland sells E-85. Not for me.

Have a road trip to Jay's Garage on SE 7th & Morrison, it appears to be the most popular. The price per gallon is unknown to the internets, though. Another one is Olson Brothers in Milwaukie at 14115 SE McLoughlin Blvd.

Isn't it also true that ethanol based gas does not travel as well? Must be used relatively quickly? Seems I recall reading that somewhere.

The shelf life of both gasoline and ethanol is about three month, after that the octane rating is so low that the engine could start knocking. If you store it in airtight gasoline canisters, it'll be even longer than that. If your fuel vapor recovery system is working properly (which it likely is), then the gas tank on an Alfa with a catalytic converter is also airtight. Just fill the tank completely if you intend to store the car for several month to get the air out.

 

[Renaldo]

Euro GTA Injector flows...

I don't think I saw this covered.

155Dude, I have a GTV6 which I'm not only planning on doing a 24v engine swap, but the 24V engine in question will be a big bore 3.45L. I wonder if the euro 3.2GTA injectors will be sufficient flow wise or whether I need to start looking at other options. Cams and compression will not be overly agressive...the engine is being built for street use with a 'moderate' target of ~300hp/300 lb-ft.

Do you have the flow rates for the 3.2GTA injectors...?

Thanks for any info!

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

For your 164L, I'd suggest a set of 0 280 155 712 from the Saab 9-5, they're quite easily available.

Just in case anyone else wants to go "dumpster diving" at the junkyard for these, application is '99 - '01 Saab 9-5 V6 Turbo. Injectors are navy blue in color.

 

[robvolz]

And if anybody is in Portland, just head over to Atomic Auto, the NW's top SAAB shop with stacks of old parts, new and used

 

[Sol Badguy]

I'm seriously thinking of picking up some of the Volvo S80 injectors after reading this thread. E85 is not available in New England, but I like the idea of improved fuel spray patterns and all that implies. S80s are cheap and plentiful in the local scrapyards. I don't think the extra ~10cc of flow per injector is going to seriously harm the tuning and I'm certain the fuel pump can handle it.

Not sure if everyone here knows this (and I'm sorry if I am repeating old info, I'm an Alfa n00b), but the 164 V6s use the same Bosch fuel pump as several V12 Ferraris, like the 456, 550 Maranello, and F50. Those use 2 pumps (one per bank) and 240cc-250cc range injectors. I also got an introduction to Ferrari pricing - holy markup, Batman!

 

[155Dude]

I don't think I saw this covered.

155Dude, I have a GTV6 which I'm not only planning on doing a 24v engine swap, but the 24V engine in question will be a big bore 3.45L. I wonder if the euro 3.2GTA injectors will be sufficient flow wise or whether I need to start looking at other options. Cams and compression will not be overly agressive...the engine is being built for street use with a 'moderate' target of ~300hp/300 lb-ft.

Do you have the flow rates for the 3.2GTA injectors...?

Thanks for any info!

3.2GTA uses the same injectors as the regular 3.2 and 3.0 24V engines, 229cc/min at 43.5psi.

However, the GTA has an elevated fuel pressure of 4.5 bars/65.25psi (compared to 3.5bars of the TwinSpark and 2.5 24V 156s, 3 bars of the early 90ies Alfas and 2.5bar of a stock GTV6). This technically rates them at 280cc/min when installed in the 3.2GTA.

Assuming that you take the fuel pressure regulator and ECU from the a 24V 164 and run the fuel system at 3bar, the perfect injectors would be be somewhere beyond 265cc/min.

If you want to do it right though, maybe do what Alfa did there and increase the fuel pressure for an improved spray pattern, along with 250cc/min (0 280 155 832) injectors. That will require an uprated pump and a different pressure regulator, i.e. this one (FP165-984). And a Megasquirt.

 

[Sol Badguy]

FYI for anyone looking to upgrade the 24V V-6 cars with the Volvo injectors like I am doing right now. 155Dude mentioned having to cut notches in the injector to fit his TwinSpark.

The notches didn't fit, but that's just a minor drawback. I took a Dremel tool and made a notch in the center between the old notch and the edge of the bezel (yellow line). I forgot to check the V6 assembly for whether it uses the upper or lower notch, so it might fit there without modifications. The Volvo injectors also lack the tab on the back, so take care to align them properly with the connector in the center.

For the 24V, the upper notch is used on the original EV1 injector for the retaining clip. The Volvo injector has that notch in the same place, but it does not go all the way around the injector body like the EV1, so the retaining clip will not fit on all the way. You will need to extend that notch on the Volvo injector to make the clip fit correctly. Here's a couple of photos of the injectors side-by-side so you can see what I mean.

There is also no positioning tab on either injector. The connector on all six injectors is aligned to the 7-8 o'clock position (where 12 o'clock is pointed toward the windshield).