[iachella]

To summarize the whole discussion, the main differences from a "fabrication" point of view are the intake, the water outlet, and the one bolt hole on the front cover.

The bolt hole can be re-drilled to match a 75TS font cover. There is plenty of meat for a new hole. If the Nord block is used, it will match up with that front cover, so it's not necessary to re-drill. Nord block needs the head stud holes countersunk as they are too short.

The outlet of the water is something I was keen on understanding, as I wasn't getting the answer I was looking for. Why all those little pipes needed to be there. I much prefer just making an outlet piece with the direction reversed and bring the water back to the radiator under the intakes.

The intake will be a tricky one. It exits out at a steep angle and needs to turn down at some point if it's going to clear the hood. I like the Spica throttles that Jim Steck grafted to my 75TS intake manifold and I would like something similar for the 155. Maybe he can get these as close a possible to the head so the runners can start turning right away. Elbow silicon connectors are a possibility. I've thought of inverting a Spica air box to get the bulk of it down below, but I will need to mock that up to see if it works. If not, an airbox will have to be fabricated.

As far as pistons and connecting rods. I do not know yet. If it goes on the Nord block, I will have to revisit that formula about shorter connecting rods, or what. Paul Spruel has some oversized liners and pistons he spoke about to me on a phone conversation a few years ago. I think building this thing up for an ultimate engine will require those. I think they were 85mm bore. Don't know what the comes out to; 2.1L, 2.2L? I'll use a single distributor and for cams, something performance off the shelf, or have Wes make me a set out of spare 75 set I have. Maybe top it off with Alfaholics GTA replica cam cover for Twin Sparks.

So all this work again begs the question of why, and maybe that is why Don is selling the head. For me it's just the novelty of doing it. With all these Honda/Chevy/Maserati engine projects going into Alfas, this is pretty tame, but yes, all this work does seem unnecessary for many. I don't expect it to be better than say, Wes' best 75TS unless I ship it to him and have him do the same with mine. I know all this in advance, so it's just a fun project to do one day.

 

[robtechno]

155 Waterpump.

It would be nice if some one can post a photo of the 155 water pump.
My opinion is that the whole deal with that water pump can be solved with an electric pump in the system.
But I want to see a 155 water pump, thank you in advance.

regards
Rob

 

[d.albe72]

I will be putting the TS in the duetto and I was told, but did not see for myself, that there isn't enough room. The engine and tranny have to go in so I can see.

it can fit, but you need to lower the front side of the valve cover edge and the intake manifold. Tha later can be forced down with a shorter support rod, best if a treaded one like discussed on other thread on this forum. The cover can be shaved relocating the oil cap and cutting the outer angle of the cover, intake side. If you have some good money to spend, make yourself a present and buy an Alfaholics gtam-lookalike cover. It's freezing expensive but beautiful and lower enough.

DO NOT forget to switch to h-d engine mounts, distance between engine and hood is however very little.

 

[FMG_V6_btb]

Here you are some pictures of a 155 engine.

When I opened it I was surprised that it has oil jets for piston cooling, feature not present at 75 or 164 engines.

Other differences:
164: 84mm bore x 88.5 stroke
155: 84mm bore x 90 mm stroke
155 rod is 3 mm shorter than the 164 one.
155 pistons has 2.25 mm more compression height than the 164 pistons
155 pistons and rods are much lighter than in the 164.

 

[d.albe72]

That's one demonstation that in the first period after Alfa "purchase" (almost no actual money was paid), Fiat CEO mr. Ghidella made a nice work of upgrading existing techonlogy. Rember series IV spider, SZ/RZ, improved 75 range (Turbo America, injected 1,6 and 1,8, powered 3 liter), pushed 164 special version (Super, Q4).

The real problems for Alfa started when Ghidella (Fiat Uno's father) was fired in favour of finance oriented mr. Romiti, linked to bank world. industrial aspects were then set aside to follow the idea that earning shpoudl come from money movements and not from product improvement. The rest is known.

 

[Federico]

It would be nice if some one can post a photo of the 155 water pump.
My opinion is that the whole deal with that water pump can be solved with an electric pump in the system.
But I want to see a 155 water pump, thank you in advance.

regards
Rob

Rob,

Fyi, your 155 8V head is at Rik's shop. I've brought him the head just recently. Washed and pressure-tested. The best head I've had!

Cheers,

Freek

 

[robtechno]

Thank you Freek.

 

[alfaturbo75]

Hi, Interesting discussion.

How about camshafts?
Do they fit between 155 and 75TS or 75 nord?

 

[iachella]

Just re-reading this. Anyone have an answer for alfaturbo75's question? I have a spare set of 75TS cams, but I don't know if they will fit in my 155TS head.

 

[d.albe72]

155 cams are different from 75 ones because it has a different intake VVT system and the exhaust camshafts doesn't drive a distributor. Given these differences, 75 and 155 camshafts can be switched, because fitting dimensions are the same.

Ciao

Alberto

 

[Gabor K.]

Hi d.albe72,

You seem to be well informed about the 155 engines!

As a bit of a distraction can you answer questions about the 155 race engines? The 155 D2 is a bit puzzling because its so different from the production engines. At the time in 94 it was told that the engine was a turbo less Q4 16V engine. However later photos show that its not that engine and also it has been mentioned that a later model had 16V twin spark and over 300Hp. Interesting is also that the race cars had Abarth project numbers!

Anything you can offer of info of these engines which are still raced in 155D2 cars and 75 IMSA replicas?

GK.

 

[d.albe72]

as far as I know this engine has nothing in common with production ones. If I'm not wrong it had also intake and exhaust sides inverted.

ciao

 

[Gabor K.]

as far as I know this engine has nothing in common with production ones. If I'm not wrong it had also intake and exhaust sides inverted.

ciao

Possibly you are right, and I am trying to find out! The Fiat/Lancia engines had the intake on opposite side of the Alfas. So could it be a Lancia engine or possbily a special Abarth creation?

Comparing images of the the Novamotor version of the Alfa TS F3 engine and the 155D2 shows very similar cam drive of the two engines. Seems the chain drive is removed and a single pulley is driving the cams via gears! Difference between the two is the intake on opposite side.

Alfa Romeo F3 Novamotor engine

Alfa Romeo forum: Alfa 155D2 Engine 320bhp


Here some photos of the 155D2/155Q4/Novamotor F3 and links for comparison:

Actually the 155D2 engine could be a highly modified Q4 engine, specially in the front. At the time these cars raced it was claimed that the Q4 engines were used without turbo. However its hard to see any similarity!

Comments anybody?

GK.

 

[Gabor K.]

Found a dutch site that confirms that the D2 engine was a turbo less 155Q4 engine in the first year 1994.

However everyone can see that the D2 engine above has no relation to the Q4 engine! So possibly the press release was not correct, or the engine was changed to something else later in the series?

Here a dutch link to the 155D2 info. Unfortunately the press release cant be opened but here a statement:

In the first season of BTCC, in 1994, the engine was the from a 155 Q4... in other words, from Delta Integrale (that's the "Lampredi " 2,0 L in fact) but without a turbo. The preparation was from Alfa Corse and the local team in UK was Prodrive. Horsepower was about 280 bhp and all engines were limited electronically to 8500 rpm. The cars were capable of 0-60 mph in "around" 3 seconds.

Alfa 155 Club • Toon onderwerp - Alfa Romeo 155 D2 (BTCC) racer

GK.

 

[Gabor K.]

Seems there is a black hole with regards to knowledge about this Alfa engine!

My guess is its a Fiat/Lancia/Abarth creation based on the Lampredi TC with intake to the left side.

Seems also there are some surplus of this engine as they tend to turn up in different race cars. I have seen a Fiat X1/9 and a Fiat 131 Abarth Rally. Of the last there are actually photos. Car raced by a guy named Paolo Diana. Some early videos with the original 16V enigne and it goes so-so(ca.230Hp). However in the last videos he is using this engine with sequential gears and the car becomes rather explosive. Understandably impressing the onlookers.
The engine in this car looks exactly the same as the one in the Alfa 155D2, except the engine markings are different. So seems he had the good opportunity to get hold of this engine!

GK.

 

[scottyairborne]

I am quite interested in the potential of the 155 8V Twinspark... It seems that it has a lot of potential, but is often overlooked due to some minor modifications for conversions and the lower numbers. I certainly don't regret buying two at once, as once the turbo fires up I suspect many will want the second engine...

 

[hunttheshunt]

I have seen a Fiat X1/9 and a Fiat 131 Abarth Rally. Of the last there are actually photos. Car raced by a guy named Paolo Diana. Some early videos with the original 16V enigne and it goes so-so(ca.230Hp). However in the last videos he is using this engine with sequential gears and the car becomes rather explosive. Understandably impressing the onlookers.
The engine in this car looks exactly the same as the one in the Alfa 155D2, except the engine markings are different.

The engine shown in this very special 131 Abarth Rally may be the same type like the 155D2; but it´s not the origin engine type being used in the 70´s
Group 4 rally car!

 

[ALFAGTAM]

Hello, this engine really interests me. The Alfa Corse D2 engine actually comes from the 164 parts bin. The block is from an Alfa 164 turbo 2.0lt engine, a Fiat / Lancia Lampredi cast iron block. It is based on the Lancia Delta / Fiat Croma 8v engine (.. some of you might ask what the hell is a Fiat Croma ). They did not use the 155 Q4 engine as it is the same engine as the Lancia Delta 16v series. The Q4 / Delta 16v block has a vibration counter shaft, the D2 block does not have this countershaft.
The D2 head is a specially designed 16v head, very different to Q4/Delta head, and not used in any road going cars. The main differences are that the cams are driven off a single belt driven gear and that the exhaust and intake have been swapped over. This allows the intake to be in the front of the car when in the BTCC Alfa Corse 155 race car. The engine sits E-W.
There was an article written up on the BTCC Alfa Corse 155 in RACECAR ENGINEERING printed in 1994 (volume & series unknown, I have a copy somewhere).
The Novamotor F3 engine is based on the Alfa TS Nord engine and is not interchangeable with the Alfa Corse D2 motor ( Alfa block to Fiat/Lancia block).
I hope this has answered any questions you might of had.
Regards,
Achille

 

[Gabor K.]

Hi Achille,
I am always amazed about the knowledge you Aussie guys have about Alfa matters! So, interesting to hear more about this engine which justabout nobody has seen and knows its origins. Also the Alfa factory statement that it was a Q4 engine without turbo seems unreasonable as the head has intakes on opposite side and cam drive is completely different.
I know about Croma Turbo as I have owned one, it came without balance axles, however the Lancia Thema turbo counterpart had balance axles. These engines had intake at the right side, opposite side of the D2 engine. And completely different camdrive. I have actually seen that Alfa 164 2L 4 cyl turbo, a Fiat TC engine with turbo, with Alfa cam covers, racing with us. Honestly the Fiat 131 Rally engine seems to come closest to the D2, as it has the intake on the left side and 16V, however otherwise completely different head.

Could be interesting to read what they wrote about this engine at the time in Racecar Engineering if you care to find it?

GK.

 

[MC-Racing]

Hi Gabor,

The D2 Engine is quite simple the fiat 1800 TS 16v block, which has no balance shafts, drilled to 86mm and fitted with the 86mm forged crankshaft. The head is too nothing special, it's the standard Alfa version of the fiat 16V / Integrale 16V head, machined to get mounted in opposite direction. I don't know if it was mounted in 155 the same way as in the 156, but in the 156 they did this head rotation because they used a special alloy front axle frame. This frame allowed to mount the engine in front-mid engine position behind the front wheel centers and very low, to get the weight center lower and more centered as in the street cars. The new position of the engine is so low, that a gearbox ist used, which has the differential case above the gearbox!

Here you can see the headwork for reverse mounting:

Reversed-head 16v conversion 2 liter startup • Guy Croft Lincoln UK 01522 705222

My friend runs a ex works 156 with all these described modifications in the european hill climb chmpionship, if you have some more questions about this cars, i'm likely meet him next weekend.

MC