[papajam]

Back in the 70's, a new customer comes into the shop complaining of poor braking after he topped up the brakefluid reservoir. It was quickly determined that all the rubber in the system was destroyed by the engine oil that the owner used to top up the reservoir. Estimates were written for a complete overhaul of the brake system but the owner declined to have it repaired. When the owner arrived to pick up the car, I refused to release it on the grounds that it was unsafe for use on public roads. My offer to tow the vehicle to a shop of his choice or to his home were declined. When the police arrived and heard both stories, the owner was read the riot act and I was commended for not releasing the car. The owner then agreed to the repairs.
A few weeks later, the owner came back and thanked me for what I had done. He, and his family, then became regular customers for years.

So, Robert. There is no sore spot here to rub. Nor have I had a loved one injured but the action I took that day may have saved someone else's loved one. So when it comes to downgrading a brake system, I will continue to take the same stance now as I did then.

 

[60sRacer]

...when it comes to downgrading a brake system, I will continue to take the same stance now as I did then.

I would appreciate a concerned mechanic that would not allow a badly maintained and failed brake system back on the road. But would you keep a well maintained single cct car off the road too? What of a dual cct system that is poorly maintained because of hard-to-find parts, vs a simple and fresh single cct system?

Your anecdote had nothing to do with the issue of "downgrading". It was about poor maintenance - an issue common to all the old dual cct systems, but much less so for the simple single cct systems.

Try this: The balance thingy that only operates the brake warning light on early dual cct systems often fails, and part (seals) are unobtainable. It's unimportant to the operation of the brakes, but its failure sometimes leads to leaks and other problems. Today, the best way to make these cars drivable is to delete the device altogether. But then you do not know if the brakes have half-failed (of course you could always LOOK), and deleting it makes the brakes "modified".

In a similar vein, the MC's for dual cct floor pedal Alfas are becoming unobtainable. Must these cars be retired from the street?

And what of the cars that have Tilton or Alfaholics dual MC set ups with F/R balance adjustments?

BTW - I appreciate the intellectual challenge. I have not yet understood your position enough to tell aprirori what you would do in these cases.

Robert

 

[papajam]

But would you keep a well maintained single cct car off the road too?

Irrelevant. Just as poor maintenance is irrelevant.
What we're taking about here is willfully removing a mandated component (a tandem master) and replacing it with a component that does not meet the mandate (a single circuit master).

In a similar vein, the MC's for dual cct floor pedal Alfas are becoming unobtainable.

NEW dual circuit masters (made by Benditalia) are available from Centerline Alfa and I stock ready to install rebuilts.

 

[kpc655]

i run the stock M/C in my race car with one of Anthony Rimicci's aluminum booster eliminators. works fantastic

 

[desmo veloce]

Nice

i run the stock M/C in my race car with one of Anthony Rimici's aluminum booster eliminators. works fantastic

kpc655-

Are they available online? How does one purchase one?

~Chris

 

[kpc655]

send a PM to "italcarguy" here on the board. a search should yield his profile,

Kevin

 

[60sRacer]

Anthony is in Northridge CA. One of the AROSC's best mechanics and racers.

Robert

 

[desmo veloce]

Thanks for the info!

 

[davbert]

No need to go with a BMW unit. 115 cars from, I think, 1975 on were fitted with 20mm masters from the factory. All the usual Alfa suppliers should have them.

davbert,
The Alfa underfloor tandem masters came in 22mm only. Can't say if other car makers used a different size though. If they did, adaptability may be an issue.
I see 4 options;
1) delete the boosters and be done with it.
2) have your master sleeved to 20mm. But then there's the issue of procuring, or having made, 20mm pistons. Then determine what seals to use.
3) install calipers with slightly larger piston diameters.
4) change the brake pedal ratio by moving the master clevis higher up on the pedal pivot arm.

69 dual no booster, lacking a little feel but clamps better with much higher pedal effort.

i dont want to go with different aftermarket calipers i have stock ate and gtv6 brembos, prefer the stock look.

i prefer not to monkey with the pedals either...i like the placement

i will go looking for an extra dual MC to resleeved by karps i suppose.

 

[davbert]

its been a long while... time to get the alfa out of storage this year

ok so if i keep my 22mc, to reduce the effort how much larger should the bores be for say an outlaw type 4 puck calipers that andy used to sell?

 

[napolean]

Brake booster delete

If space in engine bay for new headers why can't the boosters be put in the boot with the obvious pipe work changes?

 

[davbert]

its possible but you would have to deal with extra brake tube plumbing. the remote (benditalia?) boosters themselves may be the culprit. i had a few lancia scorpions that had the same pair of rear mounted booster and removed them also.

the guys with the early jalpas, urracos also ran with similar benditalia types. the jalpa shares the same basic ATE calipers with the bmw 5 series. being lighter with a more favorable mid-engine weight distribution there is no reason why the jalpa should have inferior braking. a few jalpa/urraco owners have blamed the effectiveness of the benitalia boosters. one owner replace the booster with a gen2 toyata MR2 booster and was quite happy with the brakes especially when he nearly doubled the horsepower over the stock jalpa drivetrain.

 

[Nick Westphal]

I just deleted my brake booster with a self-made adaptor.
I am using a 20mm BMW 02 MC and standart calipers (due to regulations of the race series). It works great with HAWK pads at the front brakes. The car is about 900kg.
I used a 5mm plate (aloy) to take the brake mc. For the cluch mc i bend a 2 mm steel plate. Unfortunatly i had to add a screw at the side of the engine bay, because it was not strong enough...
I added some pictures for you!

Nick