I have been a car guy my whole life and can't figure out why Alfa Spiders are so cheap? It was a fairly expensive and exotic car new but the market doesn't seem to respect these cars at all. What gives?
Yeah, On the plus side, easy to buy. The recent Hemmings Sports&Exotics compares them with the TR6 as Car and driver did years before. They compare very favorably and even the magazine mentions that TR6's go for way more, (although they do quote prices that are very high it seems to me.)
I would also add that many people simply don't know about them. My car is pretty rough, but it gets a lot of attention. Most people think it's a Fiat. I suppose Fiats are more common. I only knew about Spiders because I had seen maybe one or two on the road in my entire life, and was careful to take note of the emblems because I really liked the looks of the car.
Just look at Datsun Z cars, or any American muscle car of the 60s-70s era.....prices are sky-high because everyone remembers them from back in the day and wants one. Datsuns were never supposed to be expensive exotics, but now the "everyman's sportscar" 240Z commands a high price if it is in good condition. The American muscle cars are simply insane on price, despite the fact that they are beyond doubt the least sophisticated, lowest quality, and poorest performing (except in a straight line) vehicles of the bunch. Most folks have no idea what an Alfa Romeo is because not too many people had them back when they were being sold. I suppose this was largely due to both price and availability.
I've said this before: Alfas have always been one of the best kept secrets in North America and I am sooo glad that I've been in on it for all these years. I have no problem with someone believing that their MG or TR or Datsun is a better car than an Alfa. I've driven them all and at the end of the day that's what it's really all about - driving them. Alfas were so far and away superior and I knew that right from the first time I drove one. I never cared a lick what anyone else thought. The majority of bad talk about Fiats and Alfas comes from people who never owned one, never drove one and are just talking out their a$$.
I get a surprising number of people that come up to me at car shows and say something like, "Oh, I had one of these. Most unreliable car I ever owned."
They're not usually too happy when I explain to them that with Alfas it's not usually the car that's unreliable so much as its owner (or, in many of our cases now, the previous owner). Can't treat them like an old Valiant with a Slant-Six and only check if there's oil when the dash light comes on. The Slant Six may have been one of the most bullet-proof motors ever to come out of Detroit, and so was very tolerant of abusive or neglectful owners (who got used to treating cars that way). Not the case with Alfas. You need to take reasonable care of them, and they'll treat you well in return. As for rust issues, it's my recollection that all cars back then rusted pretty aggressively, and that Alfas don't seem to have any rusting powers above and beyond those of ordinary cars. (We could almost watch my friend's Vega rusting. The number of cars with intact rear quarters in my New England high school parking lot probably could be counted on one hand.)
But those are the perceptions Alfa is saddled with.
Saw a mid 80's Veloce (flawless) go for $22K in Jan. at Barrett-Jackson. Made me feel pretty good about my 88 (very nice but not "flawless"). I drive mine to all the races at Road America and can't believe all the compliments and questions I get. I think a previous responder was right - "best kept secret"- glad I got mine at much much less than $22K
"Market value" is a fickle concept. To show an unusual spike, there has to be something that triggers an emotional response. "The Graduate" movie did that a long time ago, helping Alfa immeasurably with new car sales at that time. There has been little to refuel a similar response since.
As for the intrinsic value, late model Alfas are largely brilliant in their simplicity rather than their technical sophistication. The Alfa engineers got very good (not great) performance from simple, low-cost design concepts. Porsches of the same era were a great deal more sophisticated, as was the Datsun Z among others. We know our Alfas are actually quite reliable when appropriately maintained, but that description, by itself, does not inflate the market perceptions.
Most of the post 1960 Alfas were intended to be inexpensive, fun, sporty cars that would be used up and thrown away. They still fit that description, but we keep a gradually declining number alive, and get to enjoy their delightful nature while other far more impressive cars enjoy escalating market values.
...there has to be something that triggers an emotional response. "The Graduate" movie did that a long time ago, helping Alfa immeasurably with new car sales at that time....
I don't know about that. As a teenager in high school I was into cars and car magazines like R&T and Alfas were one of my favorites but honestly I had never seen "The Graduate". "Easy Rider" - yes, "Children of the Damned" - yes, but never watched "The Graduate" until probably some time in the 80's on TV.
The first Alfa in our family was when my older brother bought a brand new 1972 Berlina but it was the S2 kam-tail Spider that put the bite on me. We had been driving TR3's and GT6's and I thought that re-imaged Spider was the coolest thing I'd ever seen - still do. That explainss why I've owned one for almost 35 years now.
good point Mr P. Define impressive when referring to other cars. I think the simplicity of the cars appeal to me moreso than anything else. I've had a Spider, an 88 Graduate and it was nice but didn't really ignite my soul like my first Alfa, Alfetta GTV. I now own a 164 and much prefer its simple "manual everything, basic 4 cylinder" as compared to the more complex 6 cylinder electro wizards. Markets are fickle and something I don't profess to understand. I am however the beneficiary of other peoples thinking. ciao, chris
Because there are so many (S2-S4, 71-94) and IMO they all look more or less the same.
We had a joint event with the Fiat Club recently. A sea of 124 Spiders in different colors and tuning, and two coupes. Two new 500's. While the 124's were all nice they were all the same. Like a big row of new Corvettes. The 30 Alfas on the other hand were mostly vastly different from Giuliettas to 164's, coupes, spiders and sedans.
Most spiders are not special enough to be collectable. The S1 was a great car for its day, drop dead beautiful and a really strong car technologically – unibody construction, five speed transmission, four wheel disc brakes, all aluminum dual overhead cam engine. Given the small number imported to the US it is a wonder they are not worth a lot more. The S2 is also a great car. If not then at least today it should be better recognized for its early fuel injection and still strong mechanicals. The new rear end, while maybe not as beautiful at least to purests, is a much more approachable design. The S2s are even more under appreciated. Then the trouble began – the car was produced for another 19 years! (I have a 1986 Spider and I love it.) This went a long way to undercutting just how special these early cars were/are. So our cars are better suited to hobbiest (people who want an interesting car to work on and enjoy) than collectors and this hurts the value. Spiders seem to get more than their share of abuse or more correctly neglect at the hands of their owners than most other cars. The low value of our cars, make it hard to invest in maintenance, major repairs like paint and engine work, and upgrades. It is just that the math of owning and investing in a car with limited collectability (market value) is pretty tight. This problem feeds on itself in that there are not enough good cars in the market to support to attract more people to the Spider (105/115) franchise. You just have to really fall in love! If enough of us do it will make a difference.
My Alfas past and present are on the short list of cars I've been emotionally invested in. Then you have the merican mind set of trying to go as fast as one can between stoplights. That imho doesn't offer much to become emotionally attached to. Then there is the history. What other affordable car can you get that has a history like Alfa Romeo does and have that history woven into the car you're driving today? Not many. Either you get "it" or you don't. I for one am happy to be in the much smaller first group as I suspect most of us are.
and the badge, is there ANY other car manufacturer that has a badge as cool as Alfa? I think not!
On market value: Back in 1980 I bought my 8 year old '72 for $5,000 which is what the original owner had paid for it new. But there had been a lot of inflation during the late 70's so it's hard to assess what that means. I know that, at the time, Alfas were generally considered upscale and I remember feeling somewhat intimidated when we first got the Spider by the attention it drew. Our next door neighbor had a '72 TR6 and I think she felt knocked down a notch in status when we brought the Spider home and parked next to it.
So they did garner respect back in those days. Today however, rather than seeing the Spider under-valued I think it's more of a case of seeing cars like the MGB and TR6 seriously over-valued. But it all comes down to who wants what and how much money they are willing to spend to get it.
It's the same in aviation, you can buy an Aeronca Champ for half as much as you'd pay for a Piper Cub even though it is faster, has way more room, is ergonomically superior in every way (although I doubt the word "ergonomic" even existed in 1946) and uses basically all the same components right down to the engine. It's a nostalgia premium I know but we're talking $15-20k more so obviously it just isn't going to make sense if you're looking to explain it that way.
Conversely one can say that the mostly uninspiring rubbish Alfa has been outputting
since they went FWD has cheapened the Alfa brand.
Drive a modern Spider.
Drive a S1/S2
No comparison. One speaks to itself. The other to the soul.
Mind you Alfa's not the only manufacturer to do so, it's pervasive and systemic, but ...
Nowadays the only way you can get some some car to speak to the soul
is to go up the food chain. Welcome to progress, where the 'soul' of the car must be synthesized artificially.
One can wish for the market to change, but one can't make it happen. Spiders were imported for so many years, there are so many of them around, and so many of them are in "eh" or worse shape. Note the free 76 Spider on the BB Sunday. That said, good cars should still bring good money, but the market will shift when it feels like it, not when owners think they're worth more.
There's a very nice red 86 Spider up the hill from me that goes on CL once a year, each year dropping $1000. This year was $5500, still sitting there. I figure it's a $4000 car. For sellers that's too bad, but that's the reality. If I ever sell my 85 Spider I hope to get out of it what I have spent in cash (not much, and the car was almost free) at the most, not counting a zillion hours labor.
Hey Andrew,
You never know, and my 02 says you can't put a price on zillion hours labor, just like you can't put a price on your enjoyment while doing what u did.
Hi. Soon there will be another RED Alfa in the Boynton Beach area...We are planning a relocation to one of the Valencias...and have an 86 RED (fast) spyder. Will see you when we get there. Don
I guess I mean relatively as well as absolutely, at least in markets where they appear at all. The Bay Area is the densest Alfa market in the US per capita, and according to Craig Morningstar, always has been. There are 16+ Spiders on SF CL at the moment.
It's not like these things cannot be moved around; they are fungible. Either shipped cross-country for <$800 or driven. By my reckoning, S2-4 Spiders are `50% of the ABB classifieds with several every day. Compare that with the rarer and older models. One Super every month is typical. A stepnose every 2-3 weeks on average. The man said it in the 4th or so post - supply & demand, and then adjusted by marque reputation, mark and model cache, and car condition. If you like it, enjoy it.
It makes no logical sense to me that a Porsche 356 is 50 to 100% (or more, depending on rarity) more valuable than a comparable Giulietta, but it is. The market thinks what it wants.
Anyone know production figures for 105/115 Spiders? I could look it up in the Chris Rees book tonight. 1966-1994 is a very long production run for what is essentially the same basic car.
I'll keep a look-out for you & the Spider! Mine is a Red '91 Spider w/Panasports. Don't know the "Valencias", but I'm on the Intra-costal(US1 & Golf Road). Looking forward to seeing you! We definitely need more Alfas down here!
Mine is an 86, with Chromodoro's...(I think the style is turbine) We'll be there by the end of the year. I'll check in on this bb. I think I heard that BOBCOR is the Alfa service place to go? I'll be around Woolbright, Military trail, and north of Atlantic... Don
Production numbers don't really answer the question either, they only made about 1,700 Meraks and those are undervalued also. (Ok undervalued to me, the market thinks differently.
I think it is a combination of factors and also an intangible, let's call the collective market whim.
Wow, bigger than I thought. By the kinds of numbers for cars that SCM tracks in its price guide, that is huge production.
Still small compared to Giulia sedans (500,000) and Berlinas (200,000). How many GTVs and variants?
Andrew
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