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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Being the instigator than I am prone to be, I would like to start a discussion on Alfa values, particularly GTV6's and Milano's, and other Alfas as well.
I have, in the past, been slammed for asking $8-12K for good GTV6's, when my investment was close to asking. So many detractors have said "a GTV6 is only worth $4-5K, with a concours car worth maybe $10K".
Milanos suffer the same abuse, as so many barely get a couple thousand for decent cars, never mind 164's that sell for dirt.
A lot of the naysayers have never even owned one, I have found, and yet they have vehement 'opinions' as to their value.
Here is my opinion of current, realistic values, have a gander, then post your opinion HERE, not on some poor 'for sale' posting. :

GTV6;
a drivable, restorable car, with minimal rust is worth $2-4K
A drivable, rustfree car that is somewhat presentable, needs very little, is worth $4-6K
A clean, rustfree driver with decent paint and interior needing nothing major mechanical, maybe small cosmetics, is worth $6.5-8.5K
A pristine GTV6 needing NOTHING, like near new is worth $9-15K


Milano;
a driver, not clean buts runs good, can be driven and enjoyed, worth $1.5-3K
A clean driver, needing only cosmetics and minor mechanical, but very presentable, is worth $3-5k
A clean, needs nearly nothing car, is worth $4-6.5K, with clean Verdes being worth 30% more.

164's;
Drivable B's, and L's are worth $2-3.5K
Clean, nice ones are worth $3-6
S and Q models are worth 30% to 60% more


So, here, on THIS thread, is where you all can offer your "opinions", not on sellers threads.

Go for it,,,,
 

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While I can't speak specifically to any of the models you mention as I have no interest in them for myself, but the value of any car is based on basic supply and demand. If the supply is high and the demand is low, the amount you can get for a car is reduced. If supply is low and demand is high, than the value of a car will be higher. Value is also based the size of the market. Alfa's in general don't have a particularly large following as brands go, so demand outside those that are interested in Alfa's is low, if it exists at all. And, most people will try to get something for nothing, an example is I've been trying to sell my Super for a while now and I think it fairly priced for what it is, but the few offers I got were 5 to 7 thousand less than I'm asking.
 

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To be fair - when you talk about old cars - condition, color, options and updates are so important that this thread just does not really have any "bite". It's as if someone were to create a forum dedicated to the price-guide with lively discussion on each entry.

I understand that people might not like the idea of discussion in "for sale" threads - but if this is the case, an advertisement on CL or eBay or another "for sale" site makes more sense. This is a discussion forum - and discussing cars on it is what we do - and when a specific car with a specific condition, options, colors and the like is presented - it makes a lot more sense to have the discussion there.
 

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Reality time.

We are in the second wave of a major economic collapse in this country. Fear reigns. There are fewer people who have a meaningful memory of Alfa's "greatness" in this country, which pretty much ended well before their departure in 95. People like me who have retired, or nearly so, might be the ones that have money to run up the price of desirable cars. In the last week we all saw our savings lose about 10% of its value. That may not be important if you are 40, but if you are 60 or older it may well be a critical reversal, and that's ignoring those that were wiped out two years ago.

We've seen an almost total collapse in aircraft prices. I believe there is a parallel between Italian sports cars and sporty airplanes. A perfect, award-winning biplane that sold for $60,000 5 years ago probably won't find any buyers at $30,000 today. The money is simply not out there among people who might be interested, and there are fewer who might be interested every day. Flying and very fun airplanes have lost well over 50% of their value in about 4 - 5 years. Some much more. I've seen very nice aircraft that would have sold for $150,000 4 years ago remain unsold at $60,000 today.

You might categorize the possible market:

Young kids who want something different. No money. When we were that age we bought runners for $500 and had fun. Today $1,500 is the price for something that runs, and there are plenty of options without the parts and service issues of Alfas. Many of them will run circles around an Alfa, and you can walk down to the Honda store or go on-line and have anything you need the next day.

Middle-aged family men. Forget it. They're scared of losing their jobs, and have kids and health insurance is going through the roof. Not so long ago, a guy with kids in their teens might look at an Alfa as a great project for him and his son. Now, the kid is still on a bicycle or taking the bus.

Middle-aged single men. There are a few that might buy an Alfa. Not many, and again they have choices. Most of these guys between 35 - 45 don't have the fond memories of Alfas to lead them in that direction. Just not enough critical mass to provide more demand than supply.

Older guys. We're scared of being broke and having to work as Walmart greeters when we're 70. If we've really invested well we can play with an interesting car or two. That probably does not include Milanos or GTV6's. Certainly doesn't include 164.

I believe the market on middle-aged Alfas is toast, and unlikely to return. I can imagine a perfect GTV6 being worth something in about 20 years, but all these cars are at the age where they are just old cars without much to offer except heartache.

For what I put into restoring my Alfa I could have purchased a perfect Aston, Maserati, and some Ferraris. One can buy excellent condition Italian sports cars in the mid and upper teens. Why would we want a sedan or coupe with reliability issues and very little panache compared to something from the 60's or even 70's? My 86 Spider Quad brought only 6k, and it was excellent, with new paint, leather, etc.

I'd say if you currently own a Milano, GTV6, or 164 you need to assume you are the last owner, or will end up selling it very cheaply. I personally think your estimates are close to double the real market. That's not to say a sale won't happen once in a while at a higher price, as Barnum assured us would be the case. Still, if you'd like to sell your car within a reasonably short time, I think you're prices are 2X too high.

The issue with the Super is similar, except that it is approaching its old-age, and there might be a few of us that remember them. Still, I believe a cool Super would be a 3rd or 4th addition to a collection, and in today's market I doubt even a reasonably well heeled hobbiest-collector will invest in a 3rd or 4th car. Very few, at least.

I estimate at least 10 years before we see the bubble rising on weird old Alfas again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Wow,
"I can imagine a perfect GTV6 being worth something in about 20 years, but all these cars are at the age where they are just old cars without much to offer except heartache."

I guess you have never owned a GTV6.
They are an amazing car, with performance above anything in its price range, and are very dependable. I should know, I've owned about 60 of them.

As to my price opinions being 2X too high, they are based on my actual experiences selling them. I have sold several GTV6's in the the last few years at over $10K
I have sold MANY at $6500 to $8500.
Most of the people who buy GTV6's from me fall in love with them and become fanatics. The few who get ripped off by garages may experience 'heartache', but they are the few.

I mean, you naysayers, if you don't love Alfas, Why Are You Here ??!!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
BTW,
I don't car if this thread doesn't have any 'Bite", it is just a discussion of value opinions.
For sale ads are NOT a place to air your negative opinions of a cars value. That is unfair to the seller, and a selfish, a holish thing to do.
If you don't like Alfas, don't think they are worth anything, go abuse people on the BMW or Honda forums, maybe they like that there,,
 

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Heavy Metal,

I thought you were asking for reasoned opinions, which I provided, rather than simply asking people to become your punching bag.

"The last several years" is not now, nor the next several years. My opinion is offered based upon very carefully trying to understand the world and markets as they are today and likely to be in the future.

Offering insults such as "naysayers, if you don't love Alfas' really is uncalled for. Perhaps what you were wanting was to build a long thread of Milano/GTV6 owners extolling their brilliance and offering examples of the high prices they recently obtained in order to show prospective buyers of your cars what the market is, and therefore why their investment is safe.

I believe today's market, and tomorrow's market for most middle-aged Alfas is toast. Older, truly unique, Alfas will always have some market as their supply has dwindled to match demand.

Note that nothing I said argued against GTV6's or Milanos as fun and exciting cars. Yet, you chose another accusing and insulting tone to reply.

My mistake. I thought you were asking for opinions about the current market for these cars.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well Don, I guess you are easily insulted, and maybe I am too, for that matter. Your comment of "they have nothing to offer but heartache", is insulting to me.
I am not doing this to boost my sales or increase values, I am doing this thread in response to value bashing in 'for sale' ads.

You think I"m treating you and others as 'punching bags', you should put your heart, soul, money and busted knuckles into an Alfa, offer it for mid money and get bashed,, Happens a lot, hence my reaction.
 

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BTW,
I don't car if this thread doesn't have any 'Bite", it is just a discussion of value opinions.
For sale ads are NOT a place to air your negative opinions of a cars value. That is unfair to the seller, and a selfish, a holish thing to do.
If you don't like Alfas, don't think they are worth anything, go abuse people on the BMW or Honda forums, maybe they like that there,,
That's your opinion. My opinion is that this is a forum, not a classifieds site. If you access to the people that care enough about the cars to discuss them by putting a for sale ad, you should accept the idea that it comes with discussion.

Some of this discussion is with merit, some of it is not, some people will give a proper valuation of a car, some will not. Comes with the territory, I suppose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
This is a forum, yes, but there is also a classified section. I believe, if you want to discuss the cars and their values, use the various model forums here and NOT the 'for sale' classifieds.

I think if you were to poll the people who list cars in the classifieds here, the majority would echo that sentiment.
 

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This is a forum, yes, but there is also a classified section. I believe, if you want to discuss the cars and their values, use the various model forums here and NOT the 'for sale' classifieds.
.. and as I said in my original post - this is not really relevant because when you discuss old cars - specific are so much more important than models - year, color, condition, options, rust etc... - even within models - there are so many variants - I personally, for example - would be willing to pay a premium for a 1985/1986 GTV6 over earlier years.

Let's take your very specific example of "driver restorable" and "driver presentable" cars - two people would have different opinions of where a specific car falls - you might think that an upgrade of component A to newer/better is an upgrade in value, another would disagree, etc... etc...

It just seems to me that the format of the forum and the nature of the beast (old cars are not new cars sold on spec from a dealer) just makes the discussion format more reasonable in the "for sale" threads.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You have good points there, as all the 'upgrades' and/or originality, as well as color preference, etc, do effect value.
I was just throwing out a general opinion of basic values, given my experience. It would have been too cumbersome to get extremely detailed, as there are nearly limitless things that can and have been done to 'improve' these cars, and every Alfisti will have a slightly different take on the 'improvements', versus value.
 

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You have good points there, as all the 'upgrades' and/or originality, as well as color preference, etc, do effect value.
I was just throwing out a general opinion of basic values, given my experience. It would have been too cumbersome to get extremely detailed, as there are nearly limitless things that can and have been done to 'improve' these cars, and every Alfisti will have a slightly different take on the 'improvements', versus value.
Well, I guess that there is no harm done and probably some good "get started in discussion of prices information" for a general thread like this - I just think that people that have the good sense of buying and driving Alfas will be able to sift through the "crap" that comes through in threads, even for sale threads, when needed.

I do not think this forum have shown the usual "troll" tendencies some other forums have - and people that go out of their way to derail threads are not exactly the norm here, so, imho - no harm done in discussing prices and cars in for sale threads.
 

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I posted my opinion on the AlfaGTV6.com site back in March:

Value in the US circa 2011:

$500-$1000 parts car with terminal rust

$1500-$2500 if in poor mechanical condition (bad synchros, poor compression, leaking head gaskets, failed emissions test for ubiquitous intake leaks, etc) with some rust, but not terminal rust (e.g. some rocker rust, window frame rust)

$3500-$5500 if in useable mechanical condition (daily driver with routine repair and replace taking place) with little or no rust

$8500-$10000 if in excellent condition all around (everything works, no rust), could win the annual convention concours

Maybe $12000-$15000 in showroom condition (e.g garage kept with 10,000 verified miles on it, maybe a handful like this in the USA).


Now, try to price a car with the typical performance upgrades. Very hard to do in my opinion.
 

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If you want empirical evidence, simply ask people to post their actual sale price on the cars of interest, and the date they sold them, plus any seller's premium or concessions. My first reply was that, as of now, they are toast. Gather some data on sales over the last 5 years and begin comparing them to actual realized prices from here on.

Your immediate tendency to make this personal completely invalidates the thread as having qualitative value. Most people won't tolerate it, and simply go away.

By the way, all Alfa's cause heartache. Your taking that as an insult hints that you haven't owned any real Alfas. Some cause heartache when you buy them, others when they break, others during the restoration, and others when you sell them. No one gets out without heartache. My point, which remains fully valid, is that the buyers in the market today are not so romantically inclined, and a Japanese buzz-bomb is far more fun for the money than an Alfa, and far easier to live with. We've got a small handful of parts sources in the US, and a few in Europe. *** stuff is available downtown 7 days per week.

It would appear you want to be the forum moderator as well. As others have noted, this is a discussion forum for those most interested in the type. Posting an Alfa here for sale might be thought of as akin to taking it to one of the top auctions. Every flaw will be seen and discussed by those interested. I agree that any classified post here is subject to the scrutiny and comment of the members. If that is too painful, use Craig's list or Ebay.
 

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If you want empirical evidence, simply ask people to post their actual sale price on the cars of interest, and the date they sold them, plus any seller's premium or concessions. ... Gather some data on sales over the last 5 years and begin comparing them to actual realized prices from here on.
Just as a note, that is how I arrived at my numbers. I routinely check eBay, AutoTrader, Alfa club classifieds, etc because I am Always Looking For Another. (But I don't keep written records.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Well DP, Your opinion that I haven't owned any real Alfas is a bit off. I've owned over 80 Alfas in my life, logged better than 600,000 miles in them, and the Thrills and pride of ownership have FAR outweighed any heartache.
But then again, maybe you don't consider GTV6's, Milanos and 164's real Alfas.

As to empirical evidence, I am basing my opinions on having sold around 30 of them in the last 6 years alone, and based on the fact that I check all the Craigs List Alfa postings of all the US, at least 3-4 times a week. And I watch closely the market for the cars I love, and take note of what is offered, if it sells and how long has it been listed. And this is not to see how much money I can make, but to figure out if I can save a car or not. I break even or even lose money on most, but the upside is I get to drive these amazing cars almost every day. And that makes it worth it to me.
I am not attacking you DP on any level, so chill,,,,



p.s. Maldi, I think we are on the same page. How did the Transaxle page react to your assessment of values?
 

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p.s. Maldi, I think we are on the same page. How did the Transaxle page react to your assessment of values?
Basically that you can't decide until you see it and drive it. Which is sensible advice.

The most important aspect with the value of these cars is rust. A good rust free shell is worth it's weight in gold. ;)

Also, a tranny rebuild doesn't cost $8-10k as posted above. I had mine done by a local Alfa shop for less than $1200 including gear lightening, new synchros, and two new sliders (1-2, and 3-4).

An engine rebuild would be how much? $3k?
 

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p.s. Maldi, I think we are on the same page. How did the Transaxle page react to your assessment of values?
Basically that you can't decide until you see it and drive it. Which is sensible advice.

The most important aspect with the value of these cars is rust. A good rust free shell is worth it's weight in gold. ;)

Also, a tranny rebuild doesn't cost $8-10k as posted above. I had mine done by a local Alfa shop for less than $1200 including gear lightening, new synchros, and two new sliders (1-2, and 3-4).

A stock engine rebuild would be how much? $3k? You only get into serious money when you start with the high power modifications. But if you want monster power don't buy an Alfa go get an old C4 Corvette and slap on the plentiful after market go-fast bits. You'll have more power than the chassis can handle in no time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Yeah, those are honest rebuild prices. People with no knowledge of the cars and who don't do due diligence research can get ripped off pretty easy though,,
 
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