[Mijzijde52]

Can somebody tell me what type of webers are original on a 1962 spider veloce? And what type of fuel pump? And are there other items under the hood which differs from a spider normale?

Mars

 

[Gordon Raymond]

Lionel needs to add that these were the first generation "large-top" DCOE2's with the brass butterfly bar. There exists a nice second generation DCOE2 "small-top" with steel butterfly bars.
Both are excellent performance Webers.

 

[VeloceOne]

Hi,
If I am not mistaken, '60 also had the sand-cast DCOE 2.
Regards Ian

 

[Mijzijde52]

Thanks till so far..
I have the intention to buy a 1962 veloce ( restauration object) and try to identify if all the correct parts are there ( besides the tachometer, oilsump, correct engine #). Other parts I have to look for?

 

[Gordon Raymond]

1959's, as Lionel will attest, were sometimes titled as '60's. Gets worse. REAL 750 engines had the sand cast DCO3's Some early "transitional" 750/101 LWB cars had 101 1300's with the continued 750 engine numbers, but always (to my knowledge) with the split case 4 speed transmission. Some of these cars had 750 rear axles as the rear axle transition had little to do with model years, but rather just plain old developmental changes.
My 1960 Veloce race car had a 101 1300 and 40DCOE2 (large-top) Webers. Now here is a fun tidbit! Skip McCabe, McCabe Automotive Restorations in Mundelein Illinois, a well known Ferrari Restoration shop, is restoring AR1495+10064. A 1960 LWB transitional car with factory documentation. The engine is AR+1315+31986, a 750 Veloce engine in front of a split case 4 speed, with sand cast DCO3 Webers. This is all shown on the cars data plate. Unfortunately, the head and DCO3's were stolen while the car was disassembled in California. Currently, the correct components have been located to rebuild the original engine. The car is currently fitted with an unnumbered block 101 1300 Veloce engine, while the owner saves his nickels and dimes to rebuild the correct 750 Veloce engine.
The point of my story here is that with the early LWB "transitional" cars, the parts clean up and transition to 101 components was ongoing.
I am NOT an Alfa historian, but have spent more than 2/3 rd's of my life around these cars. The infinite variations make them lots of fun!

 

[elsonite]

transition

Yes, the many variations and confusions in the transition years. My '58 Veloce is pretty much the early stuff but '59 - '62 can drive you nuts. And the literature isn't always a help. I have at least two engine blocks from those years that the number doesn't fall in to any series referenced in Fusi.

BTW, Lionel suggests that 1600 Veloce's all had mechanical fuel pumps. I'd say most but not all. Of the many I've seen about 1 in 4 came with electric, similar to the early cars.

Interesting thread, thanks.

Dan

 

[divotandtralee]

Yes, the many variations and confusions in the transition years. My '58 Veloce is pretty much the early stuff but '59 - '62 can drive you nuts. And the literature isn't always a help. I have at least two engine blocks from those years that the number doesn't fall in to any series referenced in Fusi.

BTW, Lionel suggests that 1600 Veloce's all had mechanical fuel pumps. I'd say most but not all. Of the many I've seen about 1 in 4 came with electric, similar to the early cars.

Interesting thread, thanks.

Dan

I agree with every point

 

[Gordon Raymond]

My late 65 came with electric. But it's also an odd one assembled as the very final clean up of the '65 1600 Spider Veloce's.

 

[Alleggerita]

Gordon,

Would you be able to elaborate a bit on the differences between earlier and later 40DCOE2's?

Aware of the brass spindle and different idle screw pitch. How do you mean large top vs small top? Do you have pic side by side by any chance?

Lionel needs to add that these were the first generation "large-top" DCOE2's with the brass butterfly bar. There exists a nice second generation DCOE2 "small-top" with steel butterfly bars.
Both are excellent performance Webers.

 

[Gordon Raymond]

I will take pictures tomorrow at my shop. The older 40DCOE2's have some extra passages, that end up in the body edge, and are covered by the 5 screw top that has a slightly different shape than newer DCOE series. There are also large top and small top 45DCOE's as well. Generally, all DCOE series Webers with brass butterfly bars, may be large top, except for the exceptions, while ALL steel butterfly bar Webers ARE ALL small top. (Unless they had the brass bars swapped out!)
I'll get you pictures.

 

[Gordon Raymond]

Large & Small top Weber Variations

For those curious about small-top and large-top weber 40DCOE2's and other variations with these features, here are some pictures, just for you.
First picture is a DCOE2 top. The SMALL one.
Next a pencil pointing to an extra passage on the early LARGE body.
Next a pencil pointing to another passage on the early LARGE body.
Finally the missing passage on the SMALL body.
I will continue with more photo's.

 

[Gordon Raymond]

Here are some more pictures.
First another missing passage on the DCOE2 SMALL body.
Then a SMALL DCOE2 top on a LARGE body. It does not cover the extra passages.
Another LARGE body passage not covered by the SMALL top.
Then the LARGE body, left, with a SMALL top, and a SMALL body, right, with a SMALL top.

 

[Gordon Raymond]

Finally, here is a VERY SMALL Weber that has absolutely nothing to do with the above two posts. This is just to see if anyone is really reading this.
This 28 ICP 1 came my way from Keith Goring at Alfa's Unlimited.

 

[Alex]

Finally, here is a VERY SMALL Weber that has absolutely nothing to do with the above two posts. This is just to see if anyone is really reading this.

I am, Gordon. Still learning!

 

[Gordon Raymond]

Since we love this stuff Alex, it is important to offer what we might think we know to benefit all BB readers. I like to include disclaimers, as I am often confused and incorrect, as I was the other day about the rear rubber trim on MY OWN engine compartment! We are all still learning, and the infinite Alfa variations makes this even more interesting. I try to keep my focus on the Giulietta / Giulia Spiders, but even this is very imposing! The Italians have a unique way of changing things in production, just about when you believe (usually incorrectly) that you have figured it out! Though I do a fair amount of Weber restoration, I keep in CONSTANT contact with others that do the same work, to trade information on NEW things I learn.

 

[Alleggerita]

Thanks you very much. I appreciate the time you take to educate us.

Here are some more pictures.
First another missing passage on the DCOE2 SMALL body.
Then a SMALL DCOE2 top on a LARGE body. It does not cover the extra passages.
Another LARGE body passage not covered by the SMALL top.
Then the LARGE body, left, with a SMALL top, and a SMALL body, right, with a SMALL top.

 

[Gordon Raymond]

I get to learn great stuff here too! thank YOU!

 

[tmlesko]

Thanks till so far..
I have the intention to buy a 1962 veloce ( restauration object) and try to identify if all the correct parts are there ( besides the tachometer, oilsump, correct engine #). Other parts I have to look for?

Hello Mars,
What hasn't been mentioned, and is perhaps obvious, is the serial number. Send an email to Marco Fazio at Alfa Storico [email protected] he will answer quickly with the information on record. There are many bits and pieces unique to real Veloces, a complete laundry list can no doubt be found somewhere on the web, try Christopher Boles' Veloce web site: Spider Veloce, Sprint Veloce and Sprint Speciale Registers & click on "What Makes a Veloce?"

Some obvious pieces are a cast aluminum plenum, corresponding air snorkel, dipped cam cover, left side fender mount air cleaner & bracket, air inlet hole in the driver's side fender wall and the corresponding air inlet & sheet metal divider in the grill.

Some other small bits that should be there are the bracket for the fuel filter/regulator on the right side fender wall next to the coil (what Lionel was referring to no doubt.) On the driver's side, below the steering column on the frame rail is a bracket for a rubber bump-stop that the Veloce oil pan bumps against when the engine rocks sideways. On some earlier cars, the bump-stop was part of the Veloce motor mount on that side.

All of these things should be there unless the car was not an original Veloce or has been chopped/altered by some third party such as a dealer, race outfit or owner.

On the subject of fuel pumps, I own 3, 1965 (real) Veloces. One has a mechanical pump, one has an electric pump and the third (electric) I cannot vouch for the originality of the pump because the car was stripped when I bought it. One of my cars I have owned since 1970 (mechanical pump) and one I have records for back to '70 (electric.)

Curiously, on my "mechanical pump car," the fuel line has the provision for the electrical pump plumbing, right next to the electric pump mounting bracket. So, regarding fuel pumps, I think it is safe to say that at least the later 101 Veloces came with either. Of course, my cars could certainly have been changed in the 5 years prior, so who really knows. Either way, the elec. pump mounting bracket (right side frame rail in front of axle/coil spring) is there on all.

Hope this helps! I may be in Delft in September, love to see the car.

Ciao,
Tom Lesko
Hingham. MA usa

 

[Gordon Raymond]

There are a nice restorable pair of 40DCOE2 "large-top" Webers on E-bay USA. Auction number 120697549617. This auction ends soon. I have no background with the seller.