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Discussion Starter #1
In reading over some of the posts in the 164 discussion forum, the idea of what is a rare Alfa today in the current USA market, should be a good discussion as we all have "opinions". With AR poised to re-enter the market here in the next couple of years, all of the older Alfa's will hopefully see a rise in value as people are introduced to the older cars, that haven't known about them.

IMHO, I will open the discussion by suggesting that the 164Q is a rare Alfa because of the numbers that were imported to the US (130 cars total). Now that 12 years have passed since the last Alfa was brought over, there are fewer than this remaining on the road.

I wouldn't say that a 1975 and later Alfa Spider is rare because to the number of cars that were imported. Some might argue that the 1980-1981 spider is rare because of the odd Spica injection system. The 1994-1995 CE edition spider is rare because of the few numbers with the automatic spider of S4 series being even more rare (200?).

The 2nd series Guilia Supers (1964-1966) are hard to come by with alot of interest now in trying to find decent ones that are correct or not consumed by the "tin worm". Guilia TI's even being harder to find. Andrew (Super/Berlina register) suggested that the remaining Supers number around 200 if I have my facts correct.

Guilietta and Guilia Spider Veloce's are not that prevalent with a market that is going up in value. Sprint Veloce's and Sprint Speciale's have always had good value. Guilietta Berlina's being less common of the series. Because of these values and availability of parts and few of them remaining, even cars we would throw away, are now being considered for restoration.

GTA's are rare as are any of the AR Jr.'s (1300 and 1600) as are SZ's and TZ's.

So in your opinion what is a "rare" Alfa in today's market? Consider what will the values be in 25 years as part of your criteria.
 

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Christopher,

Rare may mean uncommon (like a functional Chevy Vega), or it may mean desirable beyond its numbers (like the Disco Volante or SZ). What sense did you intend for "rare" in your question above? All Alfas are more "rare" than just about any Chevy by sheer weight of numbers. But that doesn't equate to market demand and high pricing. Just trying to understand your question better. Aghevli got it right by one sense of the word.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
MrT, I was just trying to get an idea of what some might percieve as being "rare" of the available cars that we have here in the US. The Q can be percieved as being rare. Maybe a rephrase of my question is in order...what does one percieve as being more collectable of one Alfa over another? When you look 25 years out, what will the market look like of the available cars? It is that proverbial crystal ball we all banter about. If we had only known that this car or that car would be the one to hang on to, we regret selling is sort of where this question is headed.
 

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How about the one that helped sink the company into the hands of Fiat? This is the omega of Alfa Romeos: The Arna.
 

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First and foremost - rare does not equal valuable. Something like a Niki Lauda Spider with the ugly graphics is probably more rare than, say, a 67 Duetto, but that doesn't mean it's ever going to be worth much. Sometimes cars are rare because nobody wanted them when they were new.

If you're looking for an investment, maybe something truly "special" like a GTA or Montreal would be reasonable. Lots of folks think '71-'74 Spiders are undervalued and I agree - I own one - but I'm not going to plan my retirement around its potential appreciation. I can't imagine anything from the late 70s and beyond ever becoming particularly valuable, unless it's a limited production special like the SZ "Il Monstro".

Honestly, I highly doubt that the introduction of new Alfas into the marketplace will affect the values of the old ones much. I don't think there was a huge increase in the value of old Maseratis when they came back to the US. It happened to Mini a bit, but that was because the new ones were so retro they immediately inspired a connection to the old ones. The cars that Alfa is coming back with, frankly, have little if anything to do with the ones we're driving.

-Jason
 

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Certain Mazers did appreciate. Anything that had a classic look and is in great shape did appreciate alot percentage wise. Although not in the Ferrari sense dollar wise. The Mistral, Mexico, 3500 Spider, Bora and of course Ghibli. The Indy, Khamsin and that group, so-so. The junk stayed junk. Quattroporte, BiTurbo. The early Maseratis like A6G and race cars are in a different league all together. I believe the early Alfa bug will hit people in spring 2009.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
How early is the question? Pre 65? Pre 74? Pre 80? alot of debate can be found in which one. Race cars are always in a league by themselves. I have always wondered how one gets their hands on a factory team car after its life is used up? That is another thread for another time. :) I am just trying to get a feel for what others are thinking about when it comes to AR's that will have some potential value. I alluded to some of them in my first post. I agree, they are all rare, but some are destined to be more collectable than others. The Alfetta's are great cars but they have inherit flaws from the factory that will never make them great cars, sort of like the cast iron 2000 series. Nice cars but not worth much.
 

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In general for any car not just Alfa, I would say pre-74, pre rubber bumper, pre electronics years, as they just look more classic. Usually convertibles are first to go up in value and the coupes follow. As the population ages and has more disposable income (world wide), IMHO, classic car values will riseas nostalgia sets in. The GTV will rise because of the racing connection, it is a beautiful design and inexpensive as far as collector cars go . Who would have guessed the prices they get today for a BugEye Sprite?? Velocedoc, for race cars, some with history, check out--www.race-cars.com-- Also, for what they get price wise for great cars in Euros check out --www.autosalon-singen.com--
 

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Most enthusiasts that I know believe that the collectibles were all built before 1975. When you tell them that Alfa is coming back to the USA they say something like, "For what? The best one's are the ones that we already have here anyway." I would agree with them for the most part except for the fact that I have a soft spot for the S4 Spiders of the 90's. They have held their value pretty well over the years and a lot of people view them as collectible. So who's to say what cars of what years are collectible. I think that if you love your car then that's enough to make it a collectible for you.
 

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I own a 1972 Alfa Romeo Spider 1300, fresh off the boat from Sicily. I don't know how many are here in the states, but I can't imagine it's too many.
 

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Alfasud, i think you have two. Alfa Sprint, I've only ever heard of one.

Done :)

(unless were going to exclude them for being turin non nord alfa's.. gives historical perspective to the theme [GM vs FIAT vs Nissan vs Pini vs Bertone....) :)... no i'm not suggesting we discuss this :)
 

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Actually, there is a subset of the '74 and earlier U. S. Spiders; the 1971 version. This was the last year for the 1750 engine, and the first year of the Kamm tail body. A sweet car. Mine cost $3750 from Knauz Continental in Northbrook Illinois (original location and sponsor of Horst Kwech and Ausca).

For a little history and partial thread highjack, Bill Knauz was president of AROC in the mid/late 60's, and at least one National convention was conducted in his dealership in December or January. A few interesting cars were brought into the garage, and the banquet was conducted in the basement meeting room. How things have changed...

In general for any car not just Alfa, I would say pre-74, pre rubber bumper, pre electronics years, as they just look more classic. Usually convertibles are first to go up in value and the coupes follow... /QUOTE]
 

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As much as it pains me to say it, Alfa may be the exception to the rule that ragtops are generally worth more than coupes, etc. The Duettos should do well as they are the iconic Alfa in a lot of people's minds thanks to Dustin Hoffman, but because the '71-'94 cars look so similar it's hard to differentiate between the years as much as is probably merited.

-Jason
 

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Discussion Starter #16
This is a good discussion we have started. :)
Most would agree that the pre-74 spiders are the best of the lot. The 1600 Duetto, 69 and 71 1750's being the unique years for spiders. The 72-74 spiders are in a class by themselves also. The 94-95 spiders as I have mentioned are special in their own right because they are the last run of spiders and the CE's being numbered. To bad the Niki Lauda won't be worth much as will the Mario Andretti Alfetta's or the other special edition Alfetta (I can't remember if it is the Maratona or Ballacco). All of AR's attempt at creating something special.
Those that have the special cars imported to our country in some way manner or form that are the 156's, 166's, and Spiders will be collectables becaue there are only a handful in this country.
I remember back when AR was the feature marque at the Monterey Antique Auto races the first time in the 70's there was a resurgence of people buying up Alfa's. We might see the same thing again after AR comes back.
Hence, my question, if someone was searching for a AR, what would be the collectable? Most likely the 69 and 71 GTV. The Milano Verde 3.0, 164Q, LS, would be in the ranking.
Guilia Supers and Berlina's are finally starting to see a rise in value and being collectables. Most likely due to the fact that there are new people discovering what a great car these are with little supply to meet the demand.
It is fun to make conjecture.
 

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Rare just means that there aren't a lot of them.....and in the case of many cars that I've had the 'pleasure' to own, that's probably a good thing.

Valuable means something quite different. It usually means that a car has many attributes. It looks good, drives well and often represents something more than it's mechanical ability.

It also often means that its parts are available, making it possible to enjoy,which often means that it's NOT all that rare.

It's medium rare.

GTV is a good example...however, come to think of it, a good example is quite rare.

As far as the return to N.America is concerned, it could actually de-value some of the 'not so old' cars as some people may prefer to spend their Alfa dollars on a new Brera than an old 164.

The old gems like the gt's and the early spiders etc will likely remain valuable...who knows.
 

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I'm not so sure the Berlina or Guilia Super will appreciated like a coupe. It will eventually, but slower. Even though a GTV might be considered to have 4 seats like a 356 Porsche, it really doesn't. Look at the values of the 400i or the 330 series (4 seater) Ferrari, Maserati Quattroporte, 928 Porsche or the Lambo Espada. Anything with 4 seats lags--in general. They do go up, but never the value of a coupe or convertible.
 

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Prices of collectibles have always risen more quickly than income. Even with cars as late as 164s, the number of vehicles available has pretty much become stable; the ones that can be restored or be saved have been, and the rest have been parted out or scrapped. There are only two other things that will affect prices; perceived desirability and a change in the general economy. As the general public knows little about Alfa, perceived desirability isn't going to change much unless/until Alfa returns to north America. As to the general economy, it seems to me that the number of people with enough disposable income to collect anything is becoming smaller and smaller.
 

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dretceterini, I respectfully disagree. On the contrary! We are in worldwide economy age. The numbers are growing with disposable income, young and old. The iPhone is a good example. Incomes are rising and will continue. Stop listening to Democrat nonsense like John Kerrys' "We have the worse economy since the great depression" speech. Clueless! All you have to do is look at any collectable, cars, boats or expensive toys. Despite what the papers tell you, MEDIAN home prices in So. Cal, Nor. Cal and California are at RECORD HIGHS for May! American muscle car prices. The economy is doing just fine. The guy or gal that collects anything, is not looking for money to pay his next months rent. Akitaman is moving into a larger building because his biz is booming, not shrinking, I assume. Prices will fluctuate, yes. As far as car collectors go, the field is only growing, is becoming world wide, and more expensive. Look at the number of people in vintage racing today, the number that go to Monterey at higher and higher ridiculous prices. The number of people going to classic car auctions and shows. Car collecting is not just an American pastime anymore..it is worldwide. Look at the numbers from all around the world on this BB. Is it shrinking..NOT!!
 
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