[Fogash73]

So I tried to start my '85 Graduate a while ago and for the first time in a long time it doesn't start, and, being a bit foggy on it, I could use some help. 've a lot of experience with the car, sort of fixed a lto of things and body work for 20yrs or so. It sits mostly, and I start it from time to time and it always starts. But now:

1. I turn the key, I hear the fuel pump, I turn the key to start it and it starts feebly and runs for 30 seconds or so. It sounds like it isn't getting any gas to my 79 year old ears.

2. I check/clean the air filter, take off and clean the connector to the air flow meter, no difference.

3. I pull off and replace all the fuel pump connectors, no difference.

4. Battery is good and I'm keeping a charger on it.

5. Fuel is probably ok but there is a far out chance something has happened to it. Far out, always have good preservative in it and mostly alcohol free fuel.

6. It started and ran fine a few months ago (as it always has for 20 yrs) and no changes have been made.

Any suggestions of what to check/test?

Thanks
Mike

If it starts but then stops after a while, this seems to me as a fuel shortage. Maybe your fuel filter is clogged?
Do you have an option to open fuel line in the engine compartment, lead it to a bottle and switch on ignition? Than you could check if only the pump is running or there is a fuel flow actually.

 

[spiderserie4]

starting for 30 seconds will be using the cold start injector (completely different system to the 4 main injectors)

so it sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem (injectors not firing, fuel pressure regulator leaking)
remove the small vacuum hose on top of the fuel pressure regulator, and suck on it...it should hold suction and there should be no raw fuel in it....or the FPR is bad.
test the injectors are pulsing with a noid light.

as for no. 1 in your list: the pumps should not run when you turn the key to on, only when you turn to start or the engine is running. You likely have the wrong fuel/drive relay (the KAE relay does this)....what you really need is the HUCO or VEMO relay.

if you want to quickly check if BOTH pumps are working, then simply add 12v power to the pink/white wire on the in tank pump (leave the original spade attached).....you should clearly be able to hear both pumps run.

 

[MikeRutkaus]

If it starts but then stops after a while, this seems to me as a fuel shortage. Maybe your fuel filter is clogged?
Do you have an option to open fuel line in the engine compartment, lead it to a bottle and switch on ignition? Than you could check if only the pump is running or there is a fuel flow actually.

Thanks a lot for the reply, I will do this soon. Exactly what I need.

 

[MikeRutkaus]

starting for 30 seconds will be using the cold start injector (completely different system to the 4 main injectors)

so it sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem (injectors not firing, fuel pressure regulator leaking)
remove the small vacuum hose on top of the fuel pressure regulator, and suck on it...it should hold suction and there should be no raw fuel in it....or the FPR is bad.
test the injectors are pulsing with a noid light.

as for no. 1 in your list: the pumps should not run when you turn the key to on, only when you turn to start or the engine is running. You likely have the wrong fuel/drive relay (the KAE relay does this)....what you really need is the HUCO or VEMO relay.

if you want to quickly check if BOTH pumps are working, then simply add 12v power to the pink/white wire on the in tank pump (leave the original spade attached).....you should clearly be able to hear both pumps run.
View attachment 1752997

Thank you very much for the response, I can pretty well follow instructions! I will be getting back on this soon and will report back. Mike

 

[MikeRutkaus]

starting for 30 seconds will be using the cold start injector (completely different system to the 4 main injectors)

so it sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem (injectors not firing, fuel pressure regulator leaking)
remove the small vacuum hose on top of the fuel pressure regulator, and suck on it...it should hold suction and there should be no raw fuel in it....or the FPR is bad.
test the injectors are pulsing with a noid light.

as for no. 1 in your list: the pumps should not run when you turn the key to on, only when you turn to start or the engine is running. You likely have the wrong fuel/drive relay (the KAE relay does this)....what you really need is the HUCO or VEMO relay.

if you want to quickly check if BOTH pumps are working, then simply add 12v power to the pink/white wire on the in tank pump (leave the original spade attached).....you should clearly be able to hear both pumps run.
View attachment 1752997

Can you point me toward the correct numbers for the '85 Spider HUCO or VEMO fuel pump relays? At first I dismissed this because I had replaced the fuel pump relay fifteen years ago. But thinking back it is sort of the same problem that made me replace it Maybe it went bad just sitting. Again, Thanks.

 

[gdaquilina]

Use the search function to find this thread in the Spider 105 - 115 forum. You will find sources and part numbers:
Fuel Pump Relay Available in USofA

 

[MikeRutkaus]

Use the search function to find this thread in the Spider 105 - 115 forum. You will find sources and part numbers:
Fuel Pump Relay Available in USofA

Thanks, I did and found the 7 pin relay available in two versions at Pelican, and one at Centerline. I went thru a lot of this info 7 or 8 years ago and it is coming back; quite an esoteric little society.

 

[spiderserie4]

not saying those at centerline are wrong, but they do not have a brand name by the looks of things, so whether it works as it should, dunno

the relays that work (correctly) are
HUCO 13 2019
or
VEMO V20-71-0001

so looks like the pelican parts has the VEMO
BMW Fuel Pump Relay Vemo V20-71-0001 13.63.1.276.264 4046001292644 V20710001 13-63-1-276-264 13631276264 13 63 1 276 264 V20.71.0001 V20 71 0001 | Pelican Parts

 

[MikeRutkaus]

not saying those at centerline are wrong, but they do not have a brand name by the looks of things, so whether it works as it should, dunno

the relays that work (correctly) are
HUCO 13 2019
or
VEMO V20-71-0001

so looks like the pelican parts has the VEMO
BMW Fuel Pump Relay Vemo V20-71-0001 13.63.1.276.264 4046001292644 V20710001 13-63-1-276-264 13631276264 13 63 1 276 264 V20.71.0001 V20 71 0001 | Pelican Parts

Thanks for the confirmation, that's the one I bought.

 

[Sambro36]

Had a great drive out from Lowell to Plymouth. New headers and exhaust sound great and the car does seem to be a bit peppier. Had her up to 90 mph, kinda part not paying attention and kinda part seeing how she would handle. really Liking the sound from the stinger and new front-end, motor mounts, shocks, springs, and brakes, etc really seem to have been good investments.

 

[danveloce]

Replaced the parking/emergency brake cable assembly that goes from base of parking brake lever to the differential. Finally fixed the “parking brake popping up after releasing” issue I’ve had since I got the car a year ago. And now the ebrake engages without pulling hard all the way up on the lever.

 

[Fogash73]

Preparing the underbody to historic certification

 

[Bern1]

I recently returned home after a 3 month road trip. I had left the spider in the garage with a full tank containing some Stabil and a charged battery. Before the trip I had been busy with a big project and couldn’t really make headway with the things I wanted to do to the Spider. Nothing major, just a bunch of things in the cabin to take care of. Now was going to be the time to tackle this.

First thing though before that list: earlier this summer I suspected that something not quite right with the brakes. They just didn’t seem to be as powerful as they were “supposed“ to be. Driving my friend’s Spider was a year or two in the rear view so I had no real way to judge relative performance. The Southern California restoration mechanic who has been helping me with the car suggested replacing the pads on all 4 wheels as a start.

So I started that last week, replacing the front pads. Everything looked ok, including the rotors. Even, moderate wear on the old pads. One complication for me working on this car is that my garage is stuffed, requiring me to move the car around inside and outside to get to different parts of it, especially if I need to jack corners of the car up, etc.

Anyway, yesterday I got to the left rear brake and found this when I took it apart:

Outside pad worn down to 1-2 mm with a tear in the piston boot and the inside pad ****eyed in the caliper with very uneven wear. Oh and the spring was broken. Also fresh scoring on the disc, not deep though.

So now obviously there is a caliper rebuild in the immediate future. The question is, should this development also trigger a rebuild of the other calipers, even if not obviously needing it right now? Not sure how far to go here….. Open to suggestions. Thanks!

 

[alfaloco]

If it were my Alfa, I would just replace that caliper and disc, no question about it. As to rebuilding the others, depends on how much time and miles are on the car since the last rebuild (I see it's a '73). Since your garage space is so limited, maybe you could farm that job out rather than struggle with the other three corners. Cleanup and re-sealing of calipers and the master cylinder requires an adequate, clean work surface and clean reassembly. Bleeding the system afterward requires access to all four corners and safe, stable support of the car. Your decision.

 

[Bern1]

Thanks Alfaloco. Leaning in the direction of farming this out. I cannot actually get all 4 wheels off the car at the same time in my garage.

 

[CelesteSpider]

Despite all the technical aspects here, it is certainly permissible to take a look at the emotional side when it comes to our Alfa Romeo cars.

My son is studying in another city and has just come to visit. He grew up with my Alfa Spider. When he was big enough as a child, he accompanied me sitting on a booster seat. Since the Spider was always unsubscribed in the winter, our first trip in the spring was always together and usually to buy asparagus from a farmer.

Now my son is 22, "of course" has a driver's license. Since the Spider was inactive over 10 years, we are now driven together again. Only this time he was at the wheel...and I accompanied him (without booster seat)....

Children become people and my Alfa is now almost 40 years old.

 

[gdaquilina]

Took "Alfonso" for a ride to the Niagara River. Beautiful weather and the Park was not crowded.

 

[Fogash73]

I recently returned home after a 3 month road trip. I had left the spider in the garage with a full tank containing some Stabil and a charged battery. Before the trip I had been busy with a big project and couldn’t really make headway with the things I wanted to do to the Spider. Nothing major, just a bunch of things in the cabin to take care of. Now was going to be the time to tackle this.

First thing though before that list: earlier this summer I suspected that something not quite right with the brakes. They just didn’t seem to be as powerful as they were “supposed“ to be. Driving my friend’s Spider was a year or two in the rear view so I had no real way to judge relative performance. The Southern California restoration mechanic who has been helping me with the car suggested replacing the pads on all 4 wheels as a start.

So I started that last week, replacing the front pads. Everything looked ok, including the rotors. Even, moderate wear on the old pads. One complication for me working on this car is that my garage is stuffed, requiring me to move the car around inside and outside to get to different parts of it, especially if I need to jack corners of the car up, etc.

Anyway, yesterday I got to the left rear brake and found this when I took it apart:

View attachment 1753315

Outside pad worn down to 1-2 mm with a tear in the piston boot and the inside pad ****eyed in the caliper with very uneven wear. Oh and the spring was broken. Also fresh scoring on the disc, not deep though.

So now obviously there is a caliper rebuild in the immediate future. The question is, should this development also trigger a rebuild of the other calipers, even if not obviously needing it right now? Not sure how far to go here….. Open to suggestions. Thanks!

Step1:
Simply try to move the pistons in the calipers (all 4 wheels). Push them back with some iron (like a large, bent screwdriver, i dont knot its english name), than pumpnit back with the pedal. Do it 2-3 times. It often helps to reanimate those pistons. New brake pads will be needed here because of non-symmetrical wear.

Step2:
if it does not help, then disassembly and renewing the rubber seals in the caliper. Use some very fine (2000) sandpaper or COPPER brush to clean the inside of the caliper and the outside of the piston.

on my car these were the dustcaps yet I could save the calipers (picture soon, i dont have it on my phone)

 

[spiderserie4]

So I started that last week, replacing the front pads. Everything looked ok, including the rotors. Even, moderate wear on the old pads. One complication for me working on this car is that my garage is stuffed, requiring me to move the car around inside and outside to get to different parts of it, especially if I need to jack corners of the car up, etc.

Anyway, yesterday I got to the left rear brake and found this when I took it apart:
Outside pad worn down to 1-2 mm with a tear in the piston boot and the inside pad ****eyed in the caliper with very uneven wear. Oh and the spring was broken. Also fresh scoring on the disc, not deep though.
So now obviously there is a caliper rebuild in the immediate future. The question is, should this development also trigger a rebuild of the other calipers, even if not obviously needing it right now? Not sure how far to go here….. Open to suggestions. Thanks!

well, you have visually checked the front and they are ok...that is half the job done

so you just need to check the other rear and if that looks like the one you photographed, then do both calipers (if you think a rebuild is beyond you then just get new rebuild calipers and a set of standard pads and fitting kits)
If the rotors look worn, replace those too....removing them gives you a chance to look at the park brake mechanism and a chance to check/blow dust off of that..if the park brake pads look ok, then I'd leave them be, replacing those can be a pita with those monster strength springs to tackle!

 

[Fogash73]

As promised, here the pic of my dust caps. According the record (must at annual tech inspections in Belgium, where I bought it) the car was moving only 500km/year in the last 10 years. When I bought the car, I checked the brakes around and found that the inner piston of the right rear caliper is not moving. The push-back action helped it, so after cleaning it I only had to fit new dust caps, not rebuild the calipers. For reference, there are the new ones too.

I think if the rotors having the minimum thickness (more than 7.5mm or 0.30 in), than there is no need to replace them. A new rotor does not heal a jammed caliper piston.

Calipers are cast iron, if the running surface of the cylinder hole is clean and the pistons are smoot, than adding new rubber seals is the maximum you need.
And to rebuild a caliper is neither rocket science nor brain surgery, with a little care and general cleannes around you you can do it by yourself too.