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Totally down for that, Hybrid I do not have much interest in. If I want that route I will just do Tesla.
Depends on the implementation. One way to do hybrid is to spoil the turbo with an electric motor. No lag, torque everywhere, and doesn’t require big heavy batteries.
 

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Discussion Starter #842
Nothing wrong with a bit of torque gapping........I think I’ll wait for the official announcement before putting down a deposit for a manual.
 

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Discussion Starter #844
Ciao ARwrench, I just stayed awake for the whole video and the most interesting comment was at 12:18!! (I've set to below video at that time to make it easy)

PS. I'm sure that the new ZF auto is unreal but I couldn't care less and the only reason why autos are becoming more popular is that people are becoming inherently lazier every day:frown2:


[ame]https://youtu.be/u0BZhs4Ugag?t=738[/ame]
 

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I prefer the ZF 8 spd to any other transmission I have driven including McLaren's amazing DCT (by Graziano). The video explains why all thinking drivers interested in extracting maximum enjoyment from driving a modern car choose this transmission, including the car makers' engineers.
 

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Discussion Starter #846
After 12 mins of praising every aspect of the ZF auto transmission the would be blogger states........

"Now personally, of course, I would prefer that everything came with a manual transmission, I would always opt for for a manual transmission if it was offered........."

Even lovers of the ZF autos want manuals......Keep the ZF for the mainstream drivers and provide the real enthusiast with a manual transmission please :grin2:
 

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Maybe, maybe not. But the question to answer is would he rather have no Giulia at all or one with that ZF8 spd?

Manual transmission choice is approaching a cult status, almost a religious fervour. All in search of pressing a clutch pedal (when an on/off switch is all that is needed from a functional standpoint).

Wait a minute, the ZF 8 spd already does that: operates the clutch with an on/off switch instead of your foot.
 

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Maybe, maybe not. But the question to answer is would he rather have no Giulia at all or one with that ZF8 spd?

Manual transmission choice is approaching a cult status, almost a religious fervour. All in search of pressing a clutch pedal (when an on/off switch is all that is needed from a functional standpoint).

Wait a minute, the ZF 8 spd already does that: operates the clutch with an on/off switch instead of your foot.
The Giulia is itself an irrational choice. If car choice were purely rational, we'd all be driving boring economy cars. I've made my choice: no manual, no Giulia. You are wasting your keystrokes trying to convince most of us otherwise.
 

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The Giulia is itself an irrational choice. If car choice were purely rational, we'd all be driving boring economy cars. I've made my choice: no manual, no Giulia. You are wasting your keystrokes trying to convince most of us otherwise.
I challenge anyone to prove I'm wasting keystrokes trying to illustrate the advantages of an automatic Giulia as compared to no Giulia at all.

There is also a difference between irrational and not rational. Emotional decisions may still be consistent with rationality as in: I need a car so I will buy a Giulia sized sedan. How much extra would it cost for me to buy a Giulia instead of the Mazda I should buy, purely rationally speaking...

Extending that to the possible irrationality of selecting a manual shift over an automatic reveals the cult like reasoning applied to choosing deliberately to buy the car that underperforms its potential even when expertly driven. When the choice is no Giulia or an automatic version I concede it is irrational to deprive yourself of the aesthetic satisfaction of driving a Giulia because you cannot (and never will be able to) buy one with a manual gearbox.

It's down to the psychological pleasure of pushing down and releasing a clutch pedal....what that has to do with enjoying driving I admit I fail to understand.
 
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I seriously doubt whether any of the folks slamming the Giulia for its automatic transmission have ever driven one. I love Alfas, but have always felt frustrated by how long it takes to shift. This is especially true of the GTV-6, which I still love. In my Giulia, shifts are totally under my control (in manual mode) and happen bang, bang, bang just like that. I think I read 200 milliseconds.

One thing I had to adjust to was not backing off the throttle on upshifts. The shift is so fast the motor doesn't speed up.

Man I love this car. Amazingly, my wife loves it too. She has hated all of my other Alfas.
 

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I seriously doubt whether any of the folks slamming the Giulia for its automatic transmission have ever driven one. I love Alfas, but have always felt frustrated by how long it takes to shift. This is especially true of the GTV-6, which I still love. In my Giulia, shifts are totally under my control (in manual mode) and happen bang, bang, bang just like that. I think I read 200 milliseconds.

One thing I had to adjust to was not backing off the throttle on upshifts. The shift is so fast the motor doesn't speed up.

Man I love this car. Amazingly, my wife loves it too. She has hated all of my other Alfas.
I've driven plenty of the newfangled quick-shifting autos (zf 8 speed, VW DSG, BMW DCT). They are good at what they do, but they aren't particularly engaging. If I were racing, I'd want one, but even for a friendly track day, I prefer the challenge and feedback of a manual.

By the way, manual transmissions have come a long way since your GTV-6 too. A good modern manual can shift MUCH quicker than an old Alfa manual, and flat-foot shifting (i.e. full throttle shifts) can be programmed into the ECU of a manual transmission car. In fact, the Megasquirt ECU in my spider technically supports flat foot shifting, though I've not gotten around to experimenting with it.
 

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I seriously doubt whether any of the folks slamming the Giulia for its automatic transmission have ever driven one. I love Alfas, but have always felt frustrated by how long it takes to shift. This is especially true of the GTV-6, which I still love. In my Giulia, shifts are totally under my control (in manual mode) and happen bang, bang, bang just like that. I think I read 200 milliseconds.

One thing I had to adjust to was not backing off the throttle on upshifts. The shift is so fast the motor doesn't speed up.

Man I love this car. Amazingly, my wife loves it too. She has hated all of my other Alfas.
hahaha. my wife hated all of mine too, especially the 164 only because I always had bloody knuckles owning that thing. She loves the Giulia!
 

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I think it was Henry Manney III who described the gtv6 shifter like stirring a broomstick in a bathtub of coal. Unkind but the rod linkeage back to the transaxle was a tad dire. Mind you, remote shifter mechanisms have always presented challenges to engineers.

As soon as you start touting rev matching and flat shifting electronic aids to manual shift I say you are out of the cult and now in search of an even more esoteric connection with your car.

It still boils down to that foot pedal. Even the stick to select ratios is still used for most automatics in manual mode. Silly really. Like using a bell rope to toll church bells when a computer controlled carillon works so much better.
 

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I think it was Henry Manney III who described the gtv6 shifter like stirring a broomstick in a bathtub of coal. Unkind but the rod linkeage back to the transaxle was a tad dire. Mind you, remote shifter mechanisms have always presented challenges to engineers.

As soon as you start touting rev matching and flat shifting electronic aids to manual shift I say you are out of the cult and now in search of an even more esoteric connection with your car.
Agree with both of these points ... one of the reasons I don't own a GTV6.

It still boils down to that foot pedal. Even the stick to select ratios is still used for most automatics in manual mode. Silly really. Like using a bell rope to toll church bells when a computer controlled carillon works so much better.
You are also forgetting the fun we have moving the gear lever itself.

The other thing I find fascinating, is you keep mentioning performance, i.e. shift speed. Can I remind you that we are discussing a ROAD car and an Alfa Romeo. Alfa Romeos, even this 505hp car, have never been/are never the fastest cars on the road. NOBODY buys an Alfa Romeo* to own the fastest car on the road, they buy it because it is the MOST INVOLVING for a driver to drive.

Now the problem is, Alfa Romeo have diluted that involvement equation, because new Alfas don't have a gear lever to play with. Note I said "play", and I mean that. It has nothing to do with performance, but we like being able to play. Nobody even classic races an Alfa Romeo to be the fastest, but simply because they want to race an Alfa Romeo.
Pete
* - 8c2900B and homologated race cars excepted, but unfortunately nowadays "only competitive in their class, not fastest". Now if Alfa Romeo are moving into trying to be the fastest road car, then I'm really not interested. Those days have gone, and are no longer socially acceptable.

IMHO there is no bigger dork on this planet than a driver that races his/her car on the street. Only slightly less of a dork is the person who buys a road car because it is supposedly the fastest road car/motorcycle.
 
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I owned a gtv6 from the 80's. I can imagine how good it would have been with the DCT from the 4C, dry clutches and so on.

As for the "stick shift" appeal I wonder why, if the actuation is so important, that short shift kits are so popular and why sequential gearboxes are often fitted to the most extreme versions of "manual shift" cars. The stick shift automatic has the shortest most direct throw of any shifter. Of course paddles make far more sense, leaving macro level gear selection to a row of buttons (a la Chrysler/DeSoto from the late fifties or an Aston Martin Lagonda from the 70's or a Ferrari 355 etc etc) or the nifty rotary selector favoured by and introduced by Jaguar, followed by FCA.

The reference to power, performance and safety in road cars I suggest an automatic is far safer to drive on public roads than a manual shift and makes the more powerful cars now available safer to drive in public.
 
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