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A stick shift appears to be direct but isn't really. The vast majority of drivers could not and in any event do not shift any gears. The gears remain in constant mesh. All that the lever does is move a sleeve inside the transmission, the gearbox does the rest. What is the minimum requirement for the full Monty manual transmission experience?
Your understanding of the manual gearbox is not correct. Yes the gears remain in constant mesh, the gearbox does NOT do anything by itself. The driver (only) moves the selection hub which engages that gear (i.e. connects it to the output shaft). So yes when a driver changes gear using a manual gearbox, there is NO automation, nothing is done by itself, the driver has to select the gear they want and engage that gear ... MANUALLY. And if you do not time the clutch actuation correctly the selection hub will protest and get it's teeth worn/damaged.


This is why I do not like paddle shifts. The cars I have access to, due to my financial position, are actually just automatics and the paddle asks the computer controlled automatic transmission to change gear. There is such a massive delay as this happens it is pathetic. You end up having to account for that delay and hope that you calculated it correctly ... just weird and useless.

Now a Ferrari 458 will be very different, but my families old Labrador could change gear just as well as I can if I put peanut butter on one of the paddles. There is no personal satisfaction of a skill mastered there ... unlike when I change down in my 156v6, with a completely unnecessary heal and toe blip (just to prove to myself that at 51 I can still do it) and double de-clutch (again completely unnecessary but the gear slides in ever so smoothly, making me feel very satisfied).

I am a car enthusiast, not because I like the look of them, the sound, speed, etc. but because I find driving them satisfies something in my brain, and makes me feel enjoyment at a skill (I think) I've mastered. And the neat thing about manuals, is that you can practice that gear changing skill at all speeds, i.e. even with my family in the car just going shopping, when steering, accelerator and braking inputs for other driving factors are so below any levels that require skill there is no possible satisfaction enjoyment (woo hoo, you have turned into a shopping centre car park at 20 km/h, does not engage that something in my brain)
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Sure. Describe gearshifting any way you want. Just try and force a baulk ring synchronizer to synchronize when you wish rather than when it's ready. Triple cone synchros on big gears like first or second can be really baulky when cold. You're not getting that gearchange when you want it, that's for sure.

Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearbox not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.

As for the brain power required to know which gear to select I point out that automatic gearboxes use computing power quite a bit more limited than your dog's brain.....


And the ZF shifts in 200 ms. Ever actually timed one of your shifts?
 

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Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearboxes not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.
Completely correct (other than smooth gear engagement being an illusion), and yes I'm aware that it is not good for the gearbox ... I just enjoy doing it (when I have to rebuild the gearbox, I will tell myself off ... and then keep doing it :)). I do lots of things purely for enjoyment. I don't need to pat our dogs, for example, but they and I enjoy it.

Not going into gear change speed because that just shows you don't get it.
Pete
 

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Sure. Describe gearshifting any way you want. Just try and force a baulk ring synchronizer to synchronize when you wish rather than when it's ready. Triple cone synchros on big gears like first or second can be really baulky when cold. You're not getting that gearchange when you want it, that's for sure.

Double clutching is totally pointless, btw, although I learned how on knackered gearboxes where it is necessary. Your belief that double clutching and rev matching leads to smooth gear engagement is an illusion. You are actually making the synchronizers work harder than they need to. There is no need whatsoever to engage the clutch during a downshift on a synchronized gearbox not in need of repair. Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that.

As for the brain power required to know which gear to select I point out that automatic gearboxes use computing power quite a bit more limited than your dog's brain.....


And the ZF shifts in 200 ms. Ever actually timed one of your shifts?
On the track, rev matching makes quite a difference. You will experience driveline shock otherwise. I could never get a smooth transition from corner entry to apex until I learned to rev match and heel-toe.

The thing about shift speed- Sure, I can’t shift in 200ms, but in the 200ms from when I hit a paddle to when the shift happens, I’m doing nothing. On the manual, I am doing something during the entirety of the shift, so there is no perception of lag between input and action.
 

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Wikipedia, and Bob the oil guy, just to quote a couple of nontechnical sources, both say the following about double clutching, "when done correctly it prevents wear on the "synchros"". That's what I was taught as well. At any rate, works well for me.

So "Indeed, you add wear to the synchronizers every time you do that" may not be correct.

If done perfectly, it's as if the synchronizers are not even there, as I used to learn when I drove my father's old WWII weapons carrier truck with a smash gearbox.

What double clutching can do is add more wear to the clutch disc and levers, rods, etc, being used more often. However, in my case with my 91S for instance, the clutch disc lasted 191k miles, and when the clutch was finally replaced, the synchros and everything else were still fine. So that's obviously not a worry.

My own impression has always been that, esp with old Alfa gearboxes, even from new, clod drivers could wreck synchros, esp 2nd gear, by trying to force the shift, ie, not using the patented "Alfa hesitation shift". I always used that, as taught to me by Carlo, and I never had a bad 2nd gear synchro in any of my Alfas, at least none that I can remember.

"just to prove to myself that at 51 I can still do it"

Hah, you youngsters! At 78, I still have fun doing it, pretty much every time I drive. I mean, why not? It's fun, and a skill I don't want to lose by being lazy. Just for kicks, sometimes I even go down through the gears from fifth into first that way. It's easy and satisfying. You can just feel/hear the gears and engine interacting at your touch.
 

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On the track, rev matching makes quite a difference. You will experience driveline shock otherwise. I could never get a smooth transition from corner entry to apex until I learned to rev match and heel-toe.

The thing about shift speed- Sure, I can’t shift in 200ms, but in the 200ms from when I hit a paddle to when the shift happens, I’m doing nothing. On the manual, I am doing something during the entirety of the shift, so there is no perception of lag between input and action.
Rev matching is not connected to double clutching. The former is important for traction control, the latter is an obsolete skill unless you have a broken gearbox.

In Sport mode manual selection there is no "indecision" the transmission software when paddle shifting a ZF automatic. The apparent delays when in D mode are due yo fuel economy artifacts in the programming. Fuel economy in S mode is markedly worse than the optimum achieved using D.
 

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When the driver knows how to change gear the synchros do not wear out. Double clutching either has no effect one way or the other or adds wear to the synchros.
 

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"When the driver knows how to change gear the synchros do not wear out"

You have that, in part, correct, as actually the synchros do wear just a little just from normal operation, but the wear is minimal, and unless really abused, should satisfactorily last the life of the car.

Some might think maybe you really desire a full automatically driving car as there is little difference between that and a car with a modern automatic transmission, lane control, emergency braking, etc, except a modicum of steering in and out of your driveway, lol.

Some would also call that pretty boring.
 

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"When the driver knows how to change gear the synchros do not wear out"

You have that, in part, correct, as actually the synchros do wear just a little just from normal operation, but the wear is minimal, and unless really abused, should satisfactorily last the life of the car.

Some might think maybe you really desire a full automatically driving car as there is little difference between that and a car with a modern automatic transmission, lane control, emergency braking, etc, except a modicum of steering in and out of your driveway, lol.

Some would also call that pretty boring.
Not at all. I promote the newest generation of automatics as an advance in driving enjoyment. Besides, I know that fully automated driving is beyond our capabilities and will remain so for at least my lifetime. As for EV the technology just has no future.

For me I appreciate and enjoy old fashioned cars, one of my friends restored a Lamborghini Islero, I even have the fleece jacket he commissioned to celebrate completion of the project. It is a captivating car, 5 spd, V12 naturally aspirated through 6 double throat stinky Weber carbs and with hand fabricated double a arm suspension all round and no power steering. For 1969 that is. The same friend owns the McLarens he lets me drive. But not the Lamborghini. So far anyway. And he accepts that I am a very skilled driver....

For each car there is a season and you either embrace that or not. A manual shift Giulia just handicaps the car for no good reason. Its 1965 namesake required a manual shift because the automatics of the era were just not adequate. In 2019, a manual Giulia is just a silly idea.
 

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For each car there is a season and you either embrace that or not.
Fair comment. And I have noticed that driver involvement, and therefore enjoyment quantity has reduced over those "seasons" to me.

But strangely I still enjoy driving, a little bit, my little automatic and very fuel efficient Toyota Vitz*. I think though the car would be an absolute riot if it was manual, i.e. like a FIAT Abarth and a huge amount of fun, and I would probably be silly in it and get things like speeding tickets :)
Pete
* I think some of my enjoyment is down to its fuel efficiency and therefore cheap cost to run ... meaning I'm saving money!
 

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"In 2019, a manual Giulia is just a silly idea".

Thank you.

In your eyes, maybe. Not so in some others who may not be so enamored with "new, just because it's new".

We fully understand the engineering reasons for many changes (some are just plain frivolous, or at least not really needed), but we don't have to buy them, thus far. Maybe the Government will someday fully mandate it, but not yet. Until then, we will continue to enjoy what we have, regardless of the "comments" of others.

Can't say anymore.
 

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But traffic is so bad in most metropolitan areas, an auto makes the most sense. For the manual, it's much nicer to have it in older cars like the Milano, 105 etc.
 

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But traffic is so bad in most metropolitan areas, an auto makes the most sense. For the manual, it's much nicer to have it in older cars like the Milano, 105 etc.
Take the bus or train.

It constantly amazes me how many people complain about traffic, and yet do nothing about it. Years ago, when living in Sydney, I was the same. I even went down the motorcycle route to resolve the problem, and then one day I got a flat tyre (I think) and could not solve this issue until the weekend so I reluctantly took the bus. By the end of the week I was a changed man. Motorcycle was sold, and bus was the work and back transport. I could dose on the bus, or whatever, saved money, was safer and no slower.

We all really have to give it a go. Not just for one day, but stick at it for a week or so and give it a proper go. We all love to whinge and moan about public transport, but it IS the best way for 90% of the population to get to work, even if it means multiple trains or buses are required ... and it will only get better if we actually use it (plus the more that use it the clearer the roads become so when you are forced to take a car for that rare day, you will enjoy it more. I could go on about environmental reasons, but won't ...)


To spend a considerable amount of your wages on a vehicle that has to suit traffic jams is surely close to insanity. A $200 second hand bomb, as long as reliable and has a radio and air conditioning, does that just as well!
Pete
 

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The advantage offered by modern automatics is they can be operated and perform just like a manual transmission but they also come with a fully automatic mode.

I am very much in favour of using public transit.

I'm even in favour of higher taxes to pay for much better public transit in my fair city.

In order to encourage those who really don't like driving but feel they have to because public transit is so bad....

To take the bus so I have more room on the road to drive my car.
 

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Take the bus or train.
...or work from home.

I don't find a manual transmission burdensome when I'm averaging 9mph on the days I crawl into the office. I've taken public transport and don't care for it. Much rather have my car with me so I can come and go as I please or run errands during lunch.

Again, this highlights why some people's preferences don't work for everyone. Day 898 of me not buying a Giulia because there is no manual option.
 

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Public transportation in other parts of the world may work, but it has proven to be undesirable for the most part in the USA. People like going NOW and 5 minutes from now, they do not like getting in line to depart at 9:04am, 10:04am etc. The US is much too spread out and vast for public transportation to ever succeed meaningfully.

And yes I agree to Higher Taxes, ALL those that use public transportation should have to pay higher taxes. Ty...
 

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Next model GTV6 is a 4WD hybrid and manual total 600Hp., but sorry, manual only for the LHD EU version. <img src="http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smilie" class="inlineimg" />

Skeptical about the manual part. A manual for the Giulia Quad was promised for the U.S. too originally.
 

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Totally down for that, Hybrid I do not have much interest in. If I want that route I will just do Tesla.
 
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