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I have driven a Tesla model S. Boring. Poor build quality. Electric motors do not have a power band nor do they have throttle, technically speaking. Electric motors happen to develop peak torque just before they begin turning and torque declines in a fairly linear fashion up to maximum rpm. I did not find the Tesla noticeably comfortable. I did find it exceptionally boring with mundane handling. I would prefer the most humble of ICE powered vehicle even one equipped with a CVT, which mimics electric power trains reasonably well allowing the ICE to operate very smoothly and impressively within its very real powerband.

My passing reference to CO2 emissions was not about climate change but about allowing idiots to run government. Well, idiots should not run anything, they need cibstsnt supervision. Politicians generally know very little about technical matters. The current crop seem marekedky deficient and seem absurdly proud of their ignorance.

Time will prove me right on this front, and not too much time now. The whole CO2 edifice is set to come crashing to the ground along with any and all associated regulation and technologies. Fossil fuel consumption continues to rise and proven reserves are also increasing. Cost of producing fossil fuels continues to fall.
Not sure how you found the Model S boring unless you just puttered around in it. There's a pretty intense head rush giving a Tesla full throttle.

I'm in the oil and gas industry. Costs to produce fossil fuels are rising over time. Hydraulic fracking is incredible technology, but it is not cheap and is a logistic feat. That's part of the reason why attempts to take it outside the U.S. have been mostly failures. Frontiers like northern Alaska and ultra-deep offshore projects are similarly far from cheap. The super cheap to produce fields like the Ghawar field in Saudi Arabia are in decline and will increasingly have to be propped up with secondary and tertiary recovery methods (which costs). None of this is to say we will run out of oil any time soon (or ever), but humanity has mostly picked the low hanging fruit. Plus, we have a surfeit of natural gas due to fracking, which is a great product for power plants to burn.

Let's come back to this thread in 10 years. If EVs are being sold in lower numbers than today, I owe you a set of brake pads for the vehicle of your choice :grin2:
 

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Have driven the original roadster, and ridden extensively in the Model S and Model X. All of them accelerate like stink, and both of us thought the Model S at least was very nicely and impressively built. Reminded us of my friend's Audi 6. Nothing boring about driving/riding in them. Don't know about the Model 3 yet (don't like the layout of its dash).

Alas, big drawback for us is the lack of a manual gearbox, which of course they don't need at all. Why have have a super car if you can't shift some gears for fun, lol. Of course as well, they all are far too quiet.

No manual gearbox, no sale.
 

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Discussion Starter #804
To be honest 90% of drivers should be in whatever powered self drive vehicles......we’re on this AlfaBB because we are passionate about our cars and manuals along with fossil fuel engine sounds are essential elements.

Go start up another thread on EV’s and auto, just let us tinker with our vices without being told what we should be driving.

How boring would track days be in an auto EV????............Actually please don’t ask as am over the discussion.



FCA, please build us some manual models. Happy Easter
 

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Facts are that EV sales are close to zero unless heavily subsidized. This is very easy to prove.

Fact is the Tesla is not very good to drive for a driving enthusiast. Boring and uncomfortable. The build quality is very poor for the (subsidized) price. No sensible buyer would choose a Tesla over a similarly priced (even after subsidization) ICE powered car.

Battery technology is currently completely stalled with no prospect for improvements in energy density of the scale required to come close to matching ICE power.

The current driver for adoption of any form of EV is the frankly loony idea that burning fossil fuels will cause the demise of the human race. In the next five years or so this amazing collective delusion experienced only in the Western industrial countries will be conclusively demonstrated to be complete collywaddle. At which point the "investment" in EV technology will prove to be a complete waste of money and the whole segment of the transportation industry currently caught up in this hysteria will suddenly collapse.

Currently BEV market penetration is under 1% of total with no sign of accelerating rate of penetration. It is a rich economy's delusion, nothing more.
Your assumptions are yours only, you have absolutely no contact with reality! Development in the car industry comes very fast indeed and in the EU from 2021 car emitting more than 95g CO2/km(on average for the whole fleet!) will be fined so hard that it will not be possible to market that car. EU is a big market leading in the change towards low emission and Electric cars. Cars not conforming to the new regulations will not be sold here. Change will eventually also come to remote places etc.
FCA has already had to pay Tesla a few hundred million dollars for carbon credits in Europe. As for manual Alfas in the future... It's over. We'll never see it.
 

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The Alfas I have now are the last ones I will buy.
 

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The Alfas I have now are the last ones I will buy.
More troubling is the idea that the retiring baby boom generation (in Canada that's 25% of the entire population, that's 25% even after allowing for the increases due to a huge cumulative number of immigrants who arrived as this generation aged without replacing itself) may not continue to consume at the rates required to sustain the current system of economic expansion and investment of savings.

In car terms, how often will retired folks buy anything new other than immediate consumables like food or travel? How long will baby boomers keep their current car, regardless of brand?

Lack of demand and over reaching government regulation have effectively killed the manual transmission car. What else might disappear from the marketplace if retirees change their consumption requirements?
 

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Imagine that... Driving enjoyment is subjective. Seems like manufacturers would want to offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers.

Day 883 of me not buying a Giulia because it lacks a manual option.
DanB, FCA does "offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers," just not a manual transmission. An Owners Club buddy drove my 2018 Giulia Ti Sport with Q2 on a mountain back-road from Albuquerque to Santa Fe and return. Afterwards, he decided to bite the bullet and buy the lease-return 2017 Giulia Ti Sport with both Q2 and Q4 on which he had his eye. His DD, a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS MT6, is now for sale ... the Giulia is that kind of goodness! My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #809 (Edited)
DanB, FCA does "offer lots of options to satisfy a variety of customers," just not a manual transmission. An Owners Club buddy drove my 2018 Giulia Ti Sport with Q2 on a mountain back-road from Albuquerque to Santa Fe and return. Afterwards, he decided to bite the bullet and buy the lease-return 2017 Giulia Ti Sport with both Q2 and Q4 on which he had his eye. His DD, a 2015 Chevrolet Camaro SS MT6, is now for sale ... the Giulia is that kind of goodness! My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.


You chaps just don’t get it! I’ve taken out a new Giulia and driven it sensibly in traffic and also thrashed it to an inch of it’s life in the back country. Sorry but without a manual the small minority of us just won’t heel to market constraints.

You purchase what you like and I’ll purchase what I like.
 

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The new Giulia is just one of our disappointments in life. Easy enough, though, to go on to other things. There's a whole Universe out there to ponder. Unless some sort of miracle occurs, the Alfas we have now are the last ones we will have bought.
 

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Man what a depressing thread!

I see no reason you cannot have both if you choose. I for one crave more from this giulia but for everyday driving around and spirited drives, I still have fun in it. LOTS OF FUN. Again you have to change your mindset. I am still not used to this thing, I still grab the pretend shift knob to shift. That said, I am in search for giulia 105! I just could not keep the 164S any longer and needed a driver that I could hop in, drive and not worry about much at all. I have that with the new Giulia. I do not regret selling the 164S for a Giulia. I may be without a analog car, for the moment, but I do not fret! One day in the future I will have it back again and enjoy throwing it through the gears. For now, I learn this new stuff and learn to drive this new stuff. It's fun, it's different it's new. I am enjoying learning this new technology that I am not use to at all. I'd prefer to know both. Not just stick to one. I like to keep learning.

Maybe one day in the near future I find a way to slap in a manual from the EU out of a diesel. :D Could be an option....
 

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The ZF 8 spd automatic is the finest transmission yet devised. Of any type. The latest BMW M5 is equipped with one.

Let that sink in. A BMW M5.
 

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My suggestion for you, DanB, is to take a short-term lease on a Giulia Ti Sport, or Lusso if you prefer, with the Q2 Performance Package and see for yourself that the vehicle is an Alfa Romeo through and through. No question about it.
I guess you missed my earlier posts in this thread? I've driven the Giulia multiple times, including a Quadrifoglio. There is a lot to praise about this car, and I was very close to buying one. After introspection I've come to realize I get a great deal of my daily driving enjoyment from interacting with the manual transmission. I'm not going to spend money on something that doesn't give me that.
 

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Hence why there are so many 2017 and 2018 Quads unsold.

On top of that, there is the my male part is too short 505hp engine ... I guess in 2001 when my 156v6 was made, some said the same thing. But 300hp more ... ??? ... just turning fuel into CO2 for no good reason. Like the enormous 8.1 ltr new Ford truck engine ... ridiculous.
Pete
 

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But it isn't turning fuel into CO2 for no reason. Most of the time the engine runs as an unboosted 3 cylinder 1.5 litre engine. Well, probably it runs lightly boosted which gives the best volumetric efficiency per unit power produced, as Keith Duckworth pointed out in the 70's.

So, kind of a variable geometry Dick, if you prefer to use a "metaphor".

The most interesting element of this thread is the extent to which pushing and releasing a clutch pedal creates the illusion of driver involvement in the process of car control. The reality is, as any competition driver will confirm, humans just aren't any good at operating a foot controlled clutch. Ditto using a stick on the floor of the car to select a transmission ratio, itself a requirement only because of the inherent deficiencies of the internal combustion engine. Humans aren't really any good at doing that either.

Porsche just joined the Jaguar club by ditching the movable floor mounted stick selector for their PDK gearboxes. Indeed, the major flaw in the ZF 8 spd is the totally stupid design of the selector stick, well documented. A prime example of engineers completely failing to properly deal with the weak link in car control: the driver.
 

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Well that is great to read Michael.
Pete
 

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Obviously all the piston cars are loosers here in a comparison, acceleration and braking. Suppose the new Giulia hybrid will be a competitor in this class, 4WD , more power, better emissions etc. Want a Giulia manual: Import from Germany!

 

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It seems to me that everyone, black, white, red, old, young, male, female, your poor, downtrodden, huddled masses; dog, cat, bigfoot, Yeti, Aliens, seem to understand that we LIKE driving a manual transmission: regardless of which is more efficient, quicker shifting, or whatever. Well everyone except Micheal in Cowtown....

That said, I am really contemplating pulling the trigger on a Ti....it is a very sweet car to drive.

And I have my 69 Spider for something more....antiquated?
 

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It seems to me that everyone, black, white, red, old, young, male, female, your poor, downtrodden, huddled masses; dog, cat, bigfoot, Yeti, Aliens, seem to understand that we LIKE driving a manual transmission: regardless of which is more efficient, quicker shifting, or whatever. Well everyone except Micheal in Cowtown....

That said, I am really contemplating pulling the trigger on a Ti....it is a very sweet car to drive.

And I have my 69 Spider for something more....antiquated?
Cake and eat it too type of deal! I like it but then again I may be an alien yeti that likes such things as antiquated human shifting mechanical jalopy environmental disaster as much as futuristic lighting fast automatics with zero human to metal/wire/electrical connection, no feel, almost lobotomy like vehicle. ;) Call me crazy or whatever but I like it all. The Giulia does not take away driving pleasure. You'd want an "ultimate driving machine" for that!
 

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This thread defines the automation v driver control issue currently dominating AI and robotics as applied to the car industry, well to vehicle transport generally as heavy freight and local distribution freight are likely first candidates for fully automated operations.

So, foot pedal operated clutch. How direct is that really? Is a Bowden cable equal to hydraulics? What about an electrical actuation? What if the electrical actuation could mimic the foot pedal feel of purely analog mechanical actuation or be performed using the hand only, or possibly just a fingertip? After all, electronic throttles do this and that's a big illusion for the driver. In reality the computer controls the throttle actuation from a digital signal derived from an analog input, the driver's foot (leg actually). The actual throttle operation is no longer directly proportional to the movement of the throttle pedal itself. The Giulia takes that a step further by doing the same to the brake pedal. Steering? No longer direct nor even is it possible to perform in analog fashion. Electrical power steering means the driver's analog input is converted to a digital input to the steering power assist motors.

A stick shift appears to be direct but isn't really. The vast majority of drivers could not and in any event do not shift any gears. The gears remain in constant mesh. All that the lever does is move a sleeve inside the transmission, the gearbox does the rest. What is the minimum requirement for the full Monty manual transmission experience?

Is a Bowden cable shifter acceptable? Porsche uses these. Or do they have to be a collection of rods and universals? Alfa uses rods and joints for the Alfetta and 164 transaxle layouts. Is that direct enough or do you have to be able to shift right into the top of the gearbox? How about a now obsolete pre-selector type?

The ZF automatic since the introduction of the 6 spd utilizes an electronically actuated and controlled friction clutch to transmit the drive. There is a torque converter but it is hardly in use. It is used for starting off and idling while in D, that's it. It is not a necessary component any longer (Mercedes builds a planetary automatic transmission without) but it also provides a very handy CVT effect so remains in place.

So, a direct drive manually shifted transmission using a fingertip controller as found in the Giulia, the BMW and Mercedes high performance cars is not the equal of a manually shifted direct drive transmission using a foot operated clutch pedal?

Then there's the performance aspect. The automatic can easily outperform the manual, straight lines, corners, under braking, in the wet etc etc.

Surely the driving experience relates almost entirely to the steering, acceleration and braking controlled by the driver. Having to shift gears in the elaborate fashion required by an old style manual gearbox detracts from the purity of driving. It adds nothing real.
 
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