[mcola]

I just met with a very helpful local member to review some minor issues with an 87 Quad I just bought. He went over a few things with me and in the process found the vvt not working. It was verified as not working using the methods of engine on and engine off. I checked out some of the info on vvt, and started following some of the instructions. So far, I confirmed its not working, sprayed/cleaned the needle, checked and cleaned the 3 wire connector, and checked cleaned the connector on the vvt. But I cannot find the fuse. Attached is a picture of where I suppose the fuse might be installed but isn't. Two dead ended connectors??. If this is the correct place, not sure why it would be installed this way (but I'm new to this type of car). Actually not sure why disconnected (on purpose or accident) Am I right? If not, were is the fuse, and what is this. Can somebody maybe send a pic of what I should be looking for, or if this is the right place, what a correct assembly (bullet fuse) would look like here. Thanks.

 

[Tifosi]

Yes, that is where the fuse would be.

In stock configuration its identical to the fuse holder under the cargo shelf by the ECU that services the fuel pumps.
In~line, red, bullet fuse inside it.

You can get a standard blade fuse holder and put it in that location with no ill effect.
8 amp fuse IIRC.

In this pic you can see it hiding behind the radiator resevior fill cap.

This is a pic showing the same type fuse holder back by the ECU:

 

[mcola]

Thanks for the info, I will try putting a fuse in tomorrow and see what happens. I fear this is only the beginning for me. I say this because in the second pic where you show the ECU, there is the the drive relay... well from what I recall, my car has the drive relay but nothing is plugged into it. What do you make of that? Thanks.

 

[spiderserie4]

does your car run??
the drive relay is the fuel relay - I would have thought it is pretty necessary
no fuel no go!

 

[Tifosi]

Just to be clear, the main relay is the conventional looking one with 5 blade terminals on it (#'s 86, 87, 87, 30, 85) and the drive relay is the larger/longer one with like 7~8 blade terminals on it.

If you've got an unhooked main relay, the engine don't run 'cause that's what powers the injectors. (ECU fires them by switching the ground circut for the injectors on and off)

If you've got an unhooked drive relay, the engine doesn't run because that's what operates the fuel pumps and activates the main relay to power the injectors.

If the drive relay is not connected yet the engine runs, then someone has fiddled around to make it go, and very likely created a dangerous situation in regard to fuel not cutting off when the engine stalls in the event of an accident.

Do your pumps run all the time the key is on regardless of the engine running or not?

 

[mcola]

The car runs.

I put the key in the ignition and turned it to the on position and I hear what I guess is the fuel pump. Should it only activate during crank and not in the on position.

There are 3 relays down there. One says fuel pump relay on it and its connected, another says nothing on it and is connected also (and has the bullet fuse connected in line), the other which I thought/think is the drive relay is a 5 blade marked 30 - 87 - 85 - 86 (fifth # - don't see one) and is bolted to the ECU frame with nothing hooked into it (might it be a spare?)

I just mickey moused in a temporary in a 7.5 fuse and the vvt now actuates when tested with the key in the on position and pulling on the throttle cable.


Update - so the vvt was working when the car was off (ignition in the on position). I went to fire it up and its running very rough. ****. Even worse is I disconnected the fuse, re-started the car and its still running rough. HELP? I tried connecting and disconnecting it a few times and no change. I was careful not to bugger anything else up. Any ideas what I may have caused (which could explain why it wasn't hooked up in the first place). I will admit that since it last ran earlier today (before I did this), I noticed a few engine fuel hose clamps were a touch loose so I snug them up a touch - perfect example of only doing one thing at a time so if something comes up your not guessing which thing caused it. Short of changing all those hoses, is there anyway of testing to see if a hose is the culprit. Otherwise the only thing I was thinking is maybe by pulling on the throttle cable with the engine off, I flooded the engine???? But I let it ran for a couple minutes and revved it a bit, but the roughness didn't go away. I'm not sure if its a good idea to try and drive the car in hopes of clearing it up, for fearing of making things worse or buggering it up anymore. I should mention that in addition to running rough it appears to be running very rich too.

Is it possible that now that its working it just needs to be adjusted? I read more of the right up on this and other injection issues, and if I understood it correctly, a properly working vvt will have the slightest of a gap between the pin tip and the hole it goes into when the there is a big hit of the throttle. When I look at mine, I don't see the pins tip as it permanently inserted into the hole, and when I hit the throttle, it inserts itself even more into the hole (pardon my terminology).

Update, I tried to adjust the vvt per the instructions and assuming I did it correctly, the problem still exists. Remove the electrical connector, loosen the lock nut, back off the vvt, lightly pull back the pin and let it retract on the weight of the spring (did this a few times), and then screw the vvt forward until it just touched the pin, lock the locknut, etc. Same problem, but I have a question, when this is all complete, should I be able to see the pins tip, or will it still be in the hole - because I don't see the tip.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Vintre]

Hi Mike,

Sorry to hear your troubles.

Did you by chance move those clamps that connect the big air hose across the top of the engine?

When those big air hoses, the rubber accordian one or the solid one, are not connected properly, the engine runs like crap.

Good luck,

Vin

 

[mcola]

I did, and wondered if that created a problem. I check it out and it seemed okay and even moved them back. Still have the problem. I couldn't be more upset. I can't even drive the car. Unless I get other useful ideas from others, I think I might want to come see yours in action for comparison sake. For now can you describe to me what you see when you look in the inspection hole. Thanks

 

[mcola]

All, please note the I added updates to my original post of what I did to try and fix the problem (with no luck). Hoping somebody will come along and save me. It was suggested that I might have lose or dislodged hose in the area, and from what I see, everything is connected and snug.

 

[Vintre]

Mike,

Here is a picture of the VVT plunger on the inside of the Cam Cover.

Question to the group:

We know that the VVT was not working, looks like purposely not working, and the car ran well.

VVT was connected and now runs rough.

VVT disconnected and still runs rough.

Does the VVT being engaged trigger other sensors to be re set? I don't think so.

Mike can see the VVT pin re tract from the Cam Cover but what if the VVT stays engaged on the inside of the cam cover? I read somewhere that the engine will run rough if that happens.

Vin

 

[Vintre]

Mike,

Have a read here:

Rough Idle

But it sounds like your pin retracts out all the way.

Worth a read.

Vin

 

[Alfa Seltzer]

Mike can see the VVT pin re tract from the Cam Cover but what if the VVT stays engaged on the inside of the cam cover? I read somewhere that the engine will run rough if that happens.

Vin

If its still idling rough with the electrical connector disconnected I'd say thats the next place to check.

My VVT used to stick occassionally but activating the VVT a few times would always unstick it.

 

[mcola]

Surprising slept decent despite this problem weighing me down. I'm posting a few pics of various related things in hopes of somebody noticing or recommending something.

Temp fuse - what I did to temporarily splice in the fuse.


VVT - showing the position of the pin.


Vacuum hoses - all in place and don't see anything odd.


Relays - what I have, note the one that has nothing hooked up. Despite this and before fiddling with the vvt, car ran smooth, but in my opionin lacked a bit of pep.

 

[Tifosi]

What's it do when you back the solinoid off and physically pull the plunger outward to disengage it?

 

[mcola]

The last I did with it was the adjustment procedure - allowing the spring to push out the pin, and it still ran like crap. I'm wondering if there is some crap that isn't allowing the pin to spring back as much as it should. When I get home tonight, I'm going to disconnect the fuse, pull back the solenoid enough that I can gently pull the pin back more than what the spring does on its own. Then fire up the beast to see if I can get the car to run normal without the vvt. If that works, I'm in heaven (but I have my reservations). If it does by chance work, I will lube the pin and work it back and forth a bit, and then reconnect everything to see if the car will run properly with the vvt working. Thanks.

What do you make of the relay with nothing attached to it. Whether related or not, it confuses me unless its a spare - but why?

 

[papajam]

...so the vvt was working when the car was off (ignition in the on position).

Not good.
The VVT should be activated when the throttle is almost full open; not at idle nor at part throttle.
This may indicate a problem with the throttle position switch (TPS) or the electronic relay in the VVT harness. May be why the VVT fuse was pulled in the first place.

Even worse is I disconnected the fuse, re-started the car and its still running rough.

The mechanical VVT mechanism on the cam may be at fault here.

What do you make of the relay with nothing attached to it. Whether related or not, it confuses me unless its a spare - but why?

The extra, 3rd relay is a duplicate of the main relay. Why is it there? Who knows what evil lurks in the minds of POs.

 

[Vintre]

Not good.

The mechanical VVT mechanism on the cam may be at fault here.

How do you fix that?

Vin

 

[mcola]

Papajam, thanks for chiming in...

What I meant by "the vvt was working when the car was off", was after I installed the fuse, I tested the vvt operation by turning the key to on, and pulling on the throttle cable. The vvt kicked in (can't say when) but certainly not as soon as I pulled on the throttle, but at some point in its travel (maybe close to full - I will confirm later). I was glad to see I got it to actuate, however when I started the car, it instantly ran like crap. I don't beleive the vvt actuated as soon as I started the car at idle, but something isn't right ( i can confirm this also tonight). Actually wondering if although I adjusted the vvt pin using the springs return pressure, if there is something (crap) that isn't allowing the pin to spring out as much as it needs to which leaves it very slightly in. When I get home, I will back up the solenoid and gently force it out more to see what happens. Please let me know what you think I should do or more info I can provide to help resolve this. I see you mentioned a possible issue with the TPS and/or relay. What can I do to test these? What about the inner workings in the cam cover? For now, I'd be fine with just getting the car to run good again, and forget the vvt until winter. Vintre has offered to come by tonight to help me out of this bind. Maybe between the few of us we can sort this out. Thanks

 

[papajam]

In case Vin doesn't read this, please ask him call me when he gets to your place tonight and we'll talk it over.

 

[mcola]

Perfect... really appreciate it. Mike