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Greetings. I am selling a car that I bought in 2009 with the hope of restoring it. I got it for a good price, because the head was off and it needed some mechanical work, so I took a chance. The car is located in Amherst, MA.

Turns out the members of this forum have given me some terrific information regarding the VIN s and what to look for and what is proper, and it turns out the previous owner sold me something that was not 100% legit, and I did not have enough information at the time to know what was legitimate or not. My bad.

The car was last registered in CT (May 2009), and I have a plate return receipt from the State of CT, that's why I leaned on the car being legit. You do not need a title to register a car in CT or NH if you want to put it on the road in these states, maybe others.

However, for the majority of states, this car will have difficulty being titled because of numbers not matching up 100%.

Therefore, it is a parts car, although a pretty nice one.

Body is straight, 65K miles, rust free, decent paint job, replaced 2.0 liter engine with dual weber carbs, new clutch, ran decent when parked. Have spare block, pistons, couple of heads and crank shafts, oil pans etc.

Looking to get $2,000 for the lot. Let someone build something good out of my loss.

Thanks for looking!

Adrian


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for the majority of states, this car will have difficulty being titled because of numbers not matching up 100%.
What numbers don't match?

I wouldn't be too quick to say that it can't be titled in the majority of states. Even here in California, where the titling laws aren't very user friendly, it is possible to title a car that has no paperwork. A US-delivery, pre-smog car that came from out-of-state would be relatively simple here - admittedly, other states might be more difficult.

Hope I'm not killing some BB member's deal for a project '71 spider!
 

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This is to Jay... and others. I'm aiming for full disclosure, I only recently found out where and what condition the numbers were on my car.
What I saw until this afternoon...
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What I was able to reveal this afternoon when I looked under the sticker that was put on by a previous owner some time long ago...

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What looks like a poorly reproduced A-Pillar VIN number, with a dropped number in the middle, trying to match the firewall VIN
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And finally the driver's door tag, which is what the car was registered under in CT by the previous owner, which is not a proper 7 digit VIN, and seems to have been riveted in the place where the original plastic VIN plate usually goes. At least I'm learning a lot about this!

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This is to Jay... and others. I'm aiming for full disclosure, I only recently found out where and what condition the numbers were on my car.
OK, now I get it. Yes, that sticker over the firewall VIN was clearly put there for a reason.

It would be interesting to know why a previous owner altered the VIN. I wouldn't have guessed that A pillar VIN tags had been introduced as early as 1971.
 

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I’ve watched the other thread, which raises more questions than it answers.

It appears to me that the firewall VIN suits a 1971 1750. However, this car in many respects is not a 1750. Thus, the firewall VIN may have been grafted into a donor body, or some other permutation.

Did Alfa imprint their VINs in a secret spot or two to confirm what it was originally?
 

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The orange EPA sticker on the passenger side of the engine compartment will give you the year.
 

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I believe there should also be a stamped number in the middle of the trunk floor, as well? Also, that trunk has the safety plate over the fuel tank and the whole fuel/evap system seems to belong to a Bosch era car, as well as an early Bosch door panels and maybe the tach? It looks like someone took a couple of different spiders from different eras and made one. And the mistake of creating those fake ID tags and getting the number wrong is humorous. Must have been in a Hell of a hurry, or just plain stupid.
 

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why not locate all the legitimate numbers on the car? the vin tags that are obviously forged just remove?

that A pillar one under the windshield looks hand made. And the door tag is not a VIN tag...look next to the space where a "VIN" was obviously hand stamped...it says "type" not "VIN" it's a model identification tag that the printed model number was scuffed off enough to provide a blank place to stamp a fake VIN number.

get rid of the fake tags, locate the legit tags, have the real VIN numbers inspected and apply for a lost or bonded title.

That paperwork is to the previous owner for VIN # 148129...which probably doesn't really exist in any DMV database or AR North America records anywhere...that probably why the state sent him a cancel letter and asked for the plates back.

Did you even try to register or title this car yet? or did you just sit on it since 2009? As long as you haven't tried to register this in your name with that fake VIN #...you do not want any paperwork connecting you to that fake VIN... you should be able to apply for a 'lost" or Bonded" title for the car using the true correct VIN#. Get rid of the forged plates and forget you ever saw them...
 

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OK...just found and read the other thread...yeah the trunk picture is a late S2 from the fuel tank/hoses IMO...

while that fire wall VIN looks legit AR...may or may not be for this car...are there any signs that it was grafted in from another car? I can see cracks/lines around the firewall VIN...without going home and looking at mine I don't know if those are normal seams...

If the firewall VIN is legit...could this be a 1750 as Don P thinks...from say Canada or other market? Was the 1750 sold in the US? Being in Mass...I can see a Canadian car showing up on the US market at some point in time. Over the years...engines get swapped, fuel tanks too...rare is a car of this age 100% original...so a 71 1750 with a newer fuel set up, engine and such is not really anything that strange...
 

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Nothing about this indicates it's a 1750. The tipo plate, bumpers, license plate lights, 2L engine, console, door panels, steering wheel, turn signals and fuel setup all indicate a much later car.
 

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Once you straighten out the VIN issue, this doesn't seem like a parts car to me. Perfectly repairable / restorable. Clean body, 2-liter, small bumpers (what do the fronts look like?).
 

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These have been interesting and informative threads. My question is why would anyone go to all the trouble to try and pass this off? Eleven years ago this was just a non-running used car.
 

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I believe there should also be a stamped number in the middle of the trunk floor, as well? Also, that trunk has the safety plate over the fuel tank and the whole fuel/evap system seems to belong to a Bosch era car, as well as an early Bosch door panels and maybe the tach? It looks like someone took a couple of different spiders from different eras and made one. And the mistake of creating those fake ID tags and getting the number wrong is humorous. Must have been in a Hell of a hurry, or just plain stupid.

The safety plate started in the late 70's. 1977 or 1978. Same with the door panels. The number stamped into the floor is a Pininfarina in house number from when the bodies were assembled.

This car is definitely a 1978 or later car. As I said in an earlier thread. The orange EPA sticker on the passenger side will have the year on it. That will be the model year of the car. As the emissions change every year. So did the sticker.

I think its a 78 or 79 as tha console change in 1980.
 

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The pillar tag it not in the right font, so it's a fake. I'm with @Jim G , that sticker in the engine compartment is from a 1978 or 1979 model year car. The plumbing in the trunk also looks to be later model.

I wondered the exact thing - what was the point?
The only reason would be to conceal something that happened to the original car. I've seen firewall VINs transplanted before. If this is what happened, there might be evidence of it once the heater is removed.

@Adrian (Amherst) you are applauded for full disclosure. It's really a shame that someone did this to you.
 

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As a somewhat irrelevant observation.

The "data plate", or more correctly, the registration, of an airplane IS its legal identity. Everything else is just a component. In essence, one can replace every part on an airplane, by attaching them to the data plate, which itself is just a part and can be fabricated, and it is legally considered to be the same, original plane.

To my knowledge, this is not the case with an automobile, although there are any number of very old cars that have been restored to the point the only thing left of the original is the whisper of its name.

Generally speaking, however, there would be no point in this approach with a late-70s Alfa. One would retain the identity of that 78-79 car, unless it was not legal or procedurally possible.

An owner of such a car, upon discovering it is NOT the car that it is marked to be, should have a duty to notify the State authorities to confirm its real status.
 

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Maybe to avoid emissions testing? That was my first thought, anyway.
Yes, probably a good thought. Notice that the car appears to have Webers. Perhaps a PO bought it that way, figured out that it wouldn't pass Connecticut emissions testing, and altered the numbers in an attempt to pass it off as a '71. That might work here in California, where emission testing only applies to '75 and newer cars (though I sure wouldn't try it!). Dunno whether it would work in other states, since Webers are no more correct on a US-delivery '71 Alfa than on a late 70's model.
 
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