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Discussion Starter #1
I am toying with the idea of purchasing a 1965 Veloce, sans an engine or transmission.

Any idea how much a complete veloce engine with manifolds, etc and a transmission could set me back?

Thanks
 

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I don't know what the market is since they don't grow on trees... so the market is what it will bear. A rebuildable COMPLETE engine with guarantees on the block and head? I would expect can easily fetch 12000 and with cold air box; filter canister carbs, headers etc...I don't think a seller would be embarrassed to ask 20000 or even more. If I had one and I knew the condition was a simple rebuild without extensive corrosion to head studs and straight and hasn't a spun bearing I wouldn't be surprised to have offers north of 20.

Another approach would be to buy the car as a long term speculator as I think it might be easier to bank a profit to someone less likely to sell an engine.. but it would take some time to find a mate. For my money, I'd be hard pressed to spend more than 8 or 10 on it. At 10 , I'd be kicking and fussing as I wrote the check and it better be very solid and otherwise complete with rechromable parts and nice gauges and solid seats and and ..and ..and..I've seen too many projects that end up having everything needing to be changed out like the steering wheel and gass for example that is there but junk and that is not a good plan.

Hope this helps.. All you guys with engines on the ground who thought they were worth 5 can now thank me.
 

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You could build one from scratch more easily than locate one with the correct serial number range for your car. The engines produced for the '65 Spider Veloces had an issue with cylinder heads developing cracks in the combustion chamber from the spark plug hole to the edge of the exhaust valve seat. These were the 101 casting number large port 1600 Veloce heads. Alfa offered dealers a replacement head (assembled) with a 105 casting number and small ports. This head gave better idle and low end torque, and was less likely to develop chamber cracks. Today this "replacement" head is considered correct on a '65 Veloce engine, or the less robust 101 casting number head.
As built, these engines all had 40DCOE2 large top Webers, the large port manifold, large port 101 casting number head and the lumpy 1600 Veloce cams. Distributor was iron body Bosch JF-4, Starter and generator (iron pully) were Bosch. The blocks all featured the reinforced rear main cap. Oil pumps were all 9 tooth by this time, the veloce pump still used the bronze idler gear.
As I have owned one of these cars from new in December of 1965, which I still own and drive today, 50 years later, I'm pretty familiar with this particular car. Most Alfa owners consider it the Very best of the Giulietta /Giulia Spider Veloce's. Several are under restoration by devoted owners, and collectors and drivers all benefit from another saved.
Not just my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Thanks to both of you

This car has been under restoration for the better part of 5 years by a friend of mine and is almost done. Not a concourse resto, but a very good one I believe.

A later 2 litter engine has been dropped in the car, with (I am told, need to verify) absolutely no cutting or welding, and the car is being offerer either with or w/o an engine.

Since I am not interested in a veloce with an incorrect engine I am thinking of choosing the non engine option.

Of course having an engine would allow me to use it while I find the veloce engine.

Attached are some pictures (lousy ones I admit, but that's what I have)

I have yet to see the car, but the price tag is quite a bit north of the $10K you mention, which I believe might be justified if the car's current condition is as claimed.

BTW, originally a German market car...
 

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You could build one from scratch more easily than locate one with the correct serial number range for your car. The engines produced for the '65 Spider Veloces had an issue with cylinder heads developing cracks in the combustion chamber from the spark plug hole to the edge of the exhaust valve seat. These were the 101 casting number large port 1600 Veloce heads. Alfa offered dealers a replacement head (assembled) with a 105 casting number and small ports. This head gave better idle and low end torque, and was less likely to develop chamber cracks. Today this "replacement" head is considered correct on a '65 Veloce engine, or the less robust 101 casting number head.
As built, these engines all had 40DCOE2 large top Webers, the large port manifold, large port 101 casting number head and the lumpy 1600 Veloce cams. Distributor was iron body Bosch JF-4, Starter and generator (iron pully) were Bosch. The blocks all featured the reinforced rear main cap. Oil pumps were all 9 tooth by this time, the veloce pump still used the bronze idler gear.
As I have owned one of these cars from new in December of 1965, which I still own and drive today, 50 years later, I'm pretty familiar with this particular car. Most Alfa owners consider it the Very best of the Giulietta /Giulia Spider Veloce's. Several are under restoration by devoted owners, and collectors and drivers all benefit from another saved.
Not just my opinion.
Gordo, let's not debate the merits .. I sold mine in favor of a '57 Spider Veloce and it ( my '66) won Best in Class a few times and I never regretted the decision... So how how much is the motor worth that he is looking for? I think that is the guidance he seeks.
 

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It's quite a different kettle you pose. If the seller is discounting it from the vantage point of #2 car less 10 or 20 for assembly and 20 for a motor he wouldn't get my attention for very long.
 

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I think, Uncle, a good REPLICA engine, unnumbered block, could be built for 10, if one was patient locating parts. That could be a VERY nice engine, from mostly correct, if not original components, for example, using a more common 105 1600 block and head.
You got a 101 Veloce sump in nice shape for him? That's big $ right there.
 

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I sold an used 1600 block that was a replacement with no serial numbers about two years ago for $200.00. I also sold a new 101 SZ or SS engine with no serial number for $5K three years ago. I think that any Veloce engine is expensive because the cars are being restored and sold for more than 100K. I am restoring a 750 Spider Veloce with the correct engine and restoration costs can be expensive. The days of cheap Giulietta cars are over and most of them were melted many years ago. I even threw away Spiders because who would keep a $100.00 car in a garage for 30 years.
 

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Unnumbered GTA block from Autodelta some years ago. Now a complete engine.
 

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In the interest of discussion, a 1750 carb engine would be a drop in. A lot easier to locate, and you can drive the car while you search for a 101 Veloce engine. A SS and Spider Veloce engine all share the same series of block numbers, so don't just go looking for a spider engine. 00121.xxxxx You can expect to pay some big bucks as Gordon well explained. The supply and demand will dictate any commodity. You might source one out of Italy/Europe if you know who to talk to.

I would be interested in knowing the chassis number of your Veloce for my register. Contact me in a private message please :) Not many of these around and the values will steadily climb when people find out that there are less than 500 by my estimation of the original 1091 built. Hope you have the Veloce script for the trunk lid...it has been non existent since the early 70's.
 

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As is many times the case, my printed message might come off harsher than intended.

I agree with everything Gordon and others have pointed out with a simple caveat.. the only thing separating a 1600 Spider Veloce of any significance from a standard 1600 Normale is the engine mechanicals; VIN number; and a couple of scripts. Without them, I don't believe you have anything more than a Abnormale which from an investment point of view is fools gold. It makes far more sense to do this to a Normale than this way around.

The car already has a 2 liter so plopping in a 1750 really doesn't accomplish anything or trump the fact it isn't an original missing engine.

I think lacking the correct engine, a 101 Normale core would be probably the best option. These are getting pretty hard to find too but properly set up with the Veloce style cams it would be far more satisfying and transparent with only the engine number to live with. The things missing would be the cams, JF-4 distr (common to 105's too), headers, intake, carbs, cold air box, motor mounts, pan/oil pump pick-up and arguably pistons (105 pistons work fine)..Yes, I agree.. 10-12 might get you within reach down this path especially if you find one in the stash of an Alfa mechanic like the usual suspects and they are itching to create some cash flow from it. Then you can take your time looking for the block which will eventually show up and include it in the car's resume at sale time preserving the pedegree.... which will happen someday.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Thanks again to all of you for your points of view, it gives me a good perspective of where I would be standing.

Now the next step is to see the car and see if it has been properly restored

Will post when I have more info
 

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I think lacking the correct engine, a 101 Normale core would be probably the best option. These are getting pretty hard to find too but properly set up with the Veloce style cams it would be far more satisfying and transparent with only the engine number to live with. The things missing would be the cams, JF-4 distr (common to 105's too), headers, intake, carbs, cold air box, motor mounts, pan/oil pump pick-up and arguably pistons (105 pistons work fine)..Yes, I agree.. 10-12 might get you within reach down this path especially if you find one in the stash of an Alfa mechanic like the usual suspects and they are itching to create some cash flow from it. Then you can take your time looking for the block which will eventually show up and include it in the car's resume at sale time preserving the pedegree.... which will happen someday.
I´d say this option Rick presents here is the absolutely best way to go, that´s if you want to use the car while either collecting the appropriate Veloce bits or aiming for a complete Veloce engine with time.
Either way, you can´t go wrong with this set up as 101 parts increase in value all the time, so by the time you´ll have no need for the 101 engine, you´ll still be able to sell it off with a good margin. Also a pure 101 1600 engine, even with the original Solex set up, is nothing to be ashamed of, but goes pretty good.
The other option and provided you have the money to spend on maybe a long time sitting project, is to buy the car without an engine and just let it stand, waiting for the right bits to show up.

Dennis
 

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Uncle, is not referred to as "Uncle" for his BAD ideas! Any good 1600 Normale block has the same reinforced rear main cap as the Veloce block. One with a good crank, head, and minimal internal corrosion is an ideal basis to build a 1600 Veloce engine. Even the 9 tooth gear oil pump can be a basis for the Veloce pump. All the electrics other than the required Bosch JF-4 distributor can be used as well. I've built many 1600 Veloce engines for street and track from 1600 Normale cores. I've also built a few 1600 Normales that will beat Veloce's with some (now costly) Normale manifold modifications!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
The other option and provided you have the money to spend on maybe a long time sitting project, is to buy the car without an engine and just let it stand, waiting for the right bits to show up.
That is certainly an option, just concentrate on finding a good veloce engine, more or less within the adequate serial number
 

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Ah, thanks for not reporting Uncle to the principal.... but save the Solex set-up for another day.
Well, I have an alfista friend locally here who´s racing his´61 Sprint Normale with the original 101 1300 motor and the APAI-G carburator in and his car goes like hell (vintage race, no F1), so considering 55mph/hour in the US, what´s the big fuss.....a properly prepared Solex is not that bad.....

Dennis
 

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Well, I have an alfista friend locally here who´s racing his´61 Sprint Normale with the original 101 1300 motor and the APAI-G carburator in and his car goes like hell (vintage race, no F1), so considering 55mph/hour in the US, what´s the big fuss.....a properly prepared Solex is not that bad.....

Dennis
Dennis, you need to catch up with the news.... 55 MPH was mandated 40 years ago and has long since scrubbed from the landscape so long ago I can't remember. We probably drive as fast as anyone else except for Germany. A properly prepared Solex is bordering on an oxymoron but it can help propel these cars to a surprising rate but we're speaking of preserving the concept of twin Weber induction which distinguished a true Veloce in the period. Besides, Henry, lives in Mexico.. not New Mexico...or Mexico, Missouri.. the country. My suggestion to source a 101-1600 Normale ended somewhere around the crankshaft, block and head.
 

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I would probably not buy any Veloce without the original engine. The cost to restore a car is the same for a correct car or incorrect car, but the value is much higher for the correct car. I am restoring a 750 Spider Veloce with matching numbers and that makes economic sense.
 
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