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Furthermore I am shocked so many people on this board are siding with the govt. on this one. If CARB, the EPA, NHTSA, etc etc, had thier way all our Alfas would be crushed.
 
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Does anyone remember when a person could import a non conforming car?

example= any Zagato Jr.

didn't require crash testing, wonder why this was stopped?
 

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Well Greg, to be honest here, I'm more interested in the part of the indictment regarding the wire fraud...and the previous info located on the Alfa Digest regarding defrauding dealerships that they were supposed to be delivering these cars to. From what I can tell, this isn't a case of some kind soul trying to import a car to enjoy, they lied and broke the law, for a profit...sorry, but to me that is wrong. Not only that, it leaves a bad taste in the public's mouth with regards to Alfa...I'm sure the company itself (Alfa...or Fiat..whatever) was just thrilled to be somehow involved in all this.

I too am interested in hearing the status of the indictment.

Ted
 

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Greg beat me to the punch.

You men talk about how alfa in the USA is the sweetest dream, you would by them before they were off the boat. So someone (bobcor, autodelta usa) tries to do it and the BBers are so quick to slam them. I agree that Bobcor wanted too much, but atleast he was headed in the right direction. These two guys got busted harder than my friends when they got DWI or possesion. The goverment isnt making cash off importing them, so might as well arrest them.

Atleast kudos for trying?
 

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Sorry, but I am afraid you're missing the point. Comparing this to a DUI/DWI situation just doesn't work. The article and press release don't go into the actual charges, but I'm guessing they are 18 USC 1343 Fraud by wire, radio, or television (read the law here ) and I'd be willing to bet that 18 USC 1956 Laundering of monetary instruments was thrown in as well (read it here ) ...how this could be seen as a couple guys just trying to do right by Alfisti everywhere, I don't know. And for the record, I never said I'd buy a new Alfa at any cost...and actually, I don't remember anyone else saying that either. Trying to illegally import Alfa's into the US is a sure way of never seeing them return here...also, I seriously doubt that DOT and the EPA want to crush our existing cars..but its a nice "Rove'ian"-tactic to instill fear into folks...

Ted
 

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They are only grey market cars; needing to be brought up to smog and safety requierments for the US. Black market would be if the cars were stolen.
If the goverment has taken the cars, than they have not been able to deliver. Another reason for dealers to not be happy.
 

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Kipp said:
They are only grey market cars; needing to be brought up to smog and safety requierments for the US. Black market would be if the cars were stolen.
If the goverment has taken the cars, than they have not been able to deliver. Another reason for dealers to not be happy.
black market
(Economics, Law, Business)
n.
1. The illegal business of buying or selling goods or currency in violation of restrictions such as price controls or rationing.
2. A place where these illegal operations are carried on.

Black Market
http://canadianeconomy.gc.ca/english/economy/black_market.html

Goods and services that are controlled or forbidden by governments but continue to be bought and sold privately are said to be traded on the black market. Illegal drugs, pornography and some forms of gambling are classic examples of goods and services that trade on the black market. Black markets tend to thrive in highly controlled economies where governments ration many products such as food, gas and luxury goods.

Goods in the black market do not trade in open view of the authorities. When products are banned, they can be smuggled or produced illegally, yielding profits based on demand. Legal goods and services are sometimes traded on the black market to avoid taxes.
From our friends up north....sounds fitting to me.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Black_market

I would think they would be grey market cars if they were legal to own here...an obtained and imported legally...all of which they were not.

Ted
 

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Ted, Roev'ian? I don't even know what that means, I just went to a State College, not one of those places that makes you smart. Anyway the EPA and DOT sure do want to crush our older Alfas, they want to so badly they will pay you to let them do it. Now they won't take and crush your nice 1970 GTV but they have crushed other cars that could have been restored or used for parts to keep existing older models on the road.
 

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It is admirable to try to bring Alfa back to the states. But the way Autodelta is attempting to do this is surprisingly niave, and that makes me sad.

Also, I have some problems with the way Autodelta advertises on their website:
"Autodelta's race-bred 3.0 liter 24 V engine"
"Safety is an obsession at Autodelta"
"Autodelta's engineers and designers....."

I can imagine that Fiat, and probably even Alfa Romeo, would oppose all this. Also, there is no mention whatsoever that these cars are offered for "track use only." They even mention to "Contact Roadside Assistance". The video shows the cars being driven on public roads, even passing on a double yellow! :p Maybe this is all supposed to be a "nod, nod, wink, wink" type of deal, but it is illegal whether we like it or not. And misleading.... :( We should expect more of our fellow Alfisti..

OK, enough outta me. Soapbox time over.
 

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Greg Gordon said:
I wish the Autodelta folks the best of luck fighting this. There is no logical reason to deny people the opportunity to buy these cars. Any environmental impact is minimal and probably less then most vehicles currently sold here. Sure testing may not have proven that yet that but what happened to the concept of innocent until proven guilty? Is there any evidence these cars pollute any more then a new Chevy Cobalt? I doubt it. As for the safety issue it's a matter of personal choice. I am willing to trust that they are safe, I don't need some government test to tell me what car to buy.
Would you feel the same way if you had spent $40k, $60k, or whatever amount it was that they illegally sold these cars for, and you were now facing an government order to re-export or scrap your new Alfa, with no recourse to Autodelta (I'm presuming they're strapped for cash defending this case against the government)? Alternatively, how would you feel if you'd just spent several million dollars legalizing a Porsche 959, while some schmuck decided to back-door the car into the U.S., and the government did nothing to enforce the law? By your logic, each of us should be free to exercise our personal choice whether or not such action was prohibited by law; i.e., promote anarchy. My answer to that is, you're welcome to exercise your choice, including breaking the law, provided you're prepared to pay the consequences.
 

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alfa of-corse said:
Does anyone remember when a person could import a non conforming car? example= any Zagato Jr. didn't require crash testing, wonder why this was stopped?
Cars from the pre-emissions control era (1968?) are exempt under EPA rules, as are cars that pre-date some of the safety laws (1970's). Some of the Junior Zagatos presumably fall within the exemptions.
 

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Greg Gordon said:
Ted, Roev'ian? I don't even know what that means, I just went to a State College, not one of those places that makes you smart. Anyway the EPA and DOT sure do want to crush our older Alfas, they want to so badly they will pay you to let them do it. Now they won't take and crush your nice 1970 GTV but they have crushed other cars that could have been restored or used for parts to keep existing older models on the road.
Nice try Greg, but I went to State College as well, and I know the difference between right and wrong, breaking the law and doing things within it....saying the EPA wants very badly to crush your Alfa is more than a bit misguided.

Ted
 
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canguro said:
Cars from the pre-emissions control era (1968?) are exempt under EPA rules, as are cars that pre-date some of the safety laws (1970's). Some of the Junior Zagatos presumably fall within the exemptions.
I think Jr Zagato production started in 69 or 70, Montreal production started in 71, At one time an enthusist could import a non-conforming car, but at that time there was actually an Alfa owner in Congress, I don't think any congressman is interested in cars till he needs the nascar dads, BUT you can build or even buy a turnkey kit car, thats not smogged and has never been crashtested, oh well somebody make a tube framed glass body guiletta for 115 componets I'll buy
 

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Why do I side with the EPA on this one?

Two reasons.

First- my company has no wiggle room to sell cars in the US on this aspect, why should anyone else? You think this is some type or protectionism for the US manufacturers? THat is the biggest load of BS of the whole arguemnt. We spend millions of $$ to make sure cars pass emissions and safety. If we have to do it, so does everyone else. I've even worked with the small company Aston Martin- NO wiggle room for them either in the US. Why should some company who wants to sell cars get some special treatment. They should NOT. I love Alfa Romeo, but nobody gets a break, it's just not fair to the big companies like mine.

Second- the EPA just enforces the laws they are told to write by Congress. If anyone is to blame is Congress. But, again, this was a fraud case, not a pollutant case. While the EPA does have the power to impound and crush cars, they rarely do so- they would much rather send a car back to it's home. I have a LOT of friends at the EPA, most of them are serious car people, a couple are serious Alfisti. One in particular :D

Side note- that particular EPA person would LOVE to have a new 166. But wants it in a legal and fair manner.

Friends of friends were burned on this program- from what I heard, people who wanted to be dealers were burned twice- once by Autodelta, the other by Alfa, who refused to do business with Autodelta people, no matter the lenght of time they've worked with Alfa Romeo.

If you are going to do it, do it right. I don't want to be looking over my shoulder when driving my new Alfa.
 

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Ted, it wasn't a try, I honestly have NO IDEA what "roev'ian" means, and it's not in the Webster's dictionary I have sitting here on my computer desk. If paying up to $2,500 for a car that's worth $300 just to crush it doens't qualify as "wanting to crush it" I don't know what does. There are plenty of sites on the internet discussing this. What bothers me most here is the guilty until proven innocent attitude I am seeing here. I will politely bow out of this discussion and go back to the tech forums where I belong.
 

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While it seems as if there is a guilty until proven innocent- bear in mind that this did go to court, the EPA did testify, and the cars were ruled not in compliance. The cars were thought innocent, but proven to be guilty with thier day in court.
 

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alfa of-corse said:
I think Jr Zagato production started in 69 or 70, Montreal production started in 71, At one time an enthusist could import a non-conforming car, but at that time there was actually an Alfa owner in Congress, I don't think any congressman is interested in cars till he needs the nascar dads, BUT you can build or even buy a turnkey kit car, thats not smogged and has never been crashtested, oh well somebody make a tube framed glass body guiletta for 115 componets I'll buy
Hi,

any car older than 25 years can be imported without any problems.
They are EPA and DOT exempt.
In most states they are smog exempt, too.
As far as I know in Canada the rule is 15 years and older.

Best regards

Hans in Oceanside

1958 Giulietta Spider
1976 Alfasud 5m
1979 Alfasud Giardinetta
1979 Alfa Sei (4 sale)
1986 Alfa 90 2.0 Super V6
1987 Alfa 33 TD (sold)
 

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any car older than 25 years can be imported without any problems.
They are EPA and DOT exempt.
I had heard that about being DOT exempt (I think I even found the reg on the DOT side and read it), but not about being EPA exempt. Do you have a link to the reg?

Cheers,
 
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