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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Well, folks,

After some wheedling and such I purchased some of the Gates 27093 submersible 5/16" fuel line. I found two packages (1 ft each) in a Chicago warehouse and committed to their local auto parts place in Lansing, MI, to purchase them. "Lansing," you say..., "Why Lansing?" Well, that's where a brother-in-law lives. He was nonresponsive to my email (well, his in-box was clogged with spam and he didn't see it for 2-3 weeks) and I found another local to me and bought it. Before my bro-in-law found my email, I sent a postage paid mailer to Lansing and got the other two pieces because they ordered it on my committing to buy it and I don't like to renege. These _may_ be that last ones East of the Rockies. If not, then there aren't very many left.

My wife's '92S had indeed a split piece of hose where a non-split one once was. The split was clear enough once identified, but it had me wondering. The original material seems to be a uniform rubber hose with fiber outer sheath. The assembly was the later one with one 4" piece and one 2" piece. Starting problems are now gone. I would like to keep _some_ of this material in hand, but I can provide a few needy souls with the itty bitty pieces they need, and they won't have to pony up the $30+ per foot it cost me (or ten hours on the 'net trying to find them).

If you want/need some of this, you can have it mailed to your address for $20 per car. I still have the two pieces which came from the wife's '92S to use as patterns, or I'll send the combined length and you split it. Single piece cars, same price. If you've been looking for this material, you know how hard it is to find. I spent wayyyyyy too many hours looking for it, believe me. My local rubber hose company had none and couldn't get it. Gates itself was back-ordered. Patchin's supplier in the Mid-West was out and couldn't get any more (well, 1200' min. order priced to sell at $65/ft is pretty much the same as that). One fortunate soul (BMW owner, I think?) on the internet reported his Gates contact was so sympathetic to his plight that he sent the poor soul his only 1' sample piece gratis. That wasn't me. You might be able to get some from a Ford dealer, as some Mustangs seem to need this stuff. DiFatta sent me a piece of a Parker product that I couldn't identify. Maybe you'll have better luck. Maybe it was OK, but I wasn't eager to do the experiment. They sent me only enough for the longer hose of the pair, anyway, so no great loss.

Anyway, I'm trying to do folks a favor and spread this hen's tooth scarce stuff around a bit. It was a royal pain to seek it out, and I don't want to do it again, so you can't have all of my stock. We have three running 164s and may replenish the stock some day soon. (I hate it when brain-dead people stupidly rear-end my cars or drop _big_ trash on the road in front of them.)

Michael
 

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SAE30R10 fuel hose

I just built up another tank and pump for my non-Quik silver project and only needed short piece as car early version.

When we fixed my son's 92L pump problem we converted it back to early version with lower rigid plumbing set up so only needed top short hose instead of second lower hose that is submersed more often than top hose. unless tank kept full.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I haven't looked yet at the earlier car in-tank assemblies yet, but if Steve's description says what I think it says, then the early cars need only a 2" piece of this hose. I'd send any needy soul such a piece for around $10 (including postage). If I only need a couple of inches each for the older cars, then I'll have more spare material, too.

Best wishes for everyone. Fussing with the in-tank assembly wasn't pleasant, and I cracked the holder at the bottom. Don't forego getting the "gasket" that holds the fuel pump itself. The one in the '92 was really far gone, shedding rubber into the strainer.
 

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164 12v fuel tank internal plumbing

Hose item 21 short pressure hose at top used in all models but longer hose item 31 used in later models supposedly starting with VIN 6250454 to replace flexible Rilsan feed pipe item 18. So it attaches to check valve on top of pump and requires banjo fitting item 32.

Item 12 is rubber pump mount and item 13 is in tank fuel filter strainer.

Item 14 is rubber pad that attaches under filter/pump basket and keep basket from swinging like a pendelum in high G manuevers.

When we first got Quik Silver item 14 pad was missing and PO had installed wrong type replacement hose for item 21. It was not fuel resistant and I made a fast turn and pump/basket assembly pull out of short hose and I had to be towed.

NOTE: The differences in fuel pumps is not actual pump but later pump got an extra fuel strainer screen cap on bottom that will help keep rubber flaking off of old rubber mount 12 as these do deteriorate over time due to old gas and low fuel level and rubber mount bottom half is inside fuel strainer basket.

When I was testing my spare pumps the other I was able to finally get the trash out of armature roller bearing and get an extra frozen pump to work again.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I am very happy that no one else has has the misery I had in finding this SAE30R10 tubing. If no one wants any (It cost me $30/ft, by the way, so it wasn't like I'd planned to pad my retirement piecing out this stuff), then I'll put it on the shelf and hope I don't have to use it any time soon. But, hey, maybe I'll just pre-emptively replace the tubing in all of our 164 cars (in my spare time).

And, Steve, thanks for posting the diagram. I'm sure it will help folks. I think the tags I put on the thread will make it surface during any reasonably well-formed search.

Michael
 

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I got tank ready to install in non-Quik Silver next week. Tank cost me 75 and 125 to get it cleaned. I rebuilt entire pump set up shown in diagram with new SAE30R10 hose I had in my stash. I am down to about a foot left of new hose stock as I have also sent some out to fellow Alfisti.

I hope I never have to go back into our fleet of 5 or so tanks in our family fleet of 164s I have retrofitted with that hose.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
Craig @ The stock may not be depleted in Oz yet. But it seems to be so in the good ol' U.S.A.

MKeith @ A few weeks ago I was looking desperately for this material so I didn't have to do the job twice. I broke one of the side mounts of the filter basket in removing the pump assembly from the tank, and I don't want to have to do any given car more than once. I'd planned to send out material in one-car lots keep more cars on the road. Postage allowance makes up a big part of the 1-car prices above. I'd like for the effort I spent digging this stuff up to do someone some short-term good. Tell me what you need now, whether the older setup's single 2" piece or the later car's 4"+2" pieces (approx. dimensions), and I'll send those. But do make certain what you need, then P.M. me.

If you don't provide actual dimensions, I'll cut pieces to match those from the wife's '92S as patterns, which I kept for this exact purpose. Her car is beyond Steve's quoted VIN 6250454 threshold and had both hoses. Son's '93L should need both also, but the low-VIN '91L should need only the shorter piece. We also have two totaled cars (one early one late) and could sell pump assemblies if needed.

Michael
 

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G'Day Michael,

Craig @ The stock may not be depleted in Oz yet. But it seems to be so in the good ol' U.S.A.
There's a company here that makes it (I don't know when their last production run was or what stock they hold) but they don't sell retail and the minimum qty is 1 metre (about 3') and of course I only needed 50mm (2") which made it very expensive.

(P.S. when is the US going metric? Only three countries, the United States, Liberia, and Myanmar (Burma) still use imperial).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Good question, Craig. Probably about the time the clock faces are re-painted to divide the day into ten equal units of time, and we can agree upon which two months to delete so we can have only ten per year. How many bottles of beer are in a six-pack down in Oz, by the way?

Michael......maxed out at a couple short of a dozen
 

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I still have some of that hose left as well. Seems some other cars need this stuff, as well as Ducati motorcycles, so Gates should get on it and make some more! Though most people I suspect can go to their dealer and get the hose they need, not so easy for us Alfa folks. I had to replace a short length of hose in my 89 240 Volvo in very much the same location as my 164. I used a hose made for this from FCP Groton, but don't see it on their website now. They have posted up a new website that everyone seems to hate, including me, not as many items on it as before. I haven't verified the ID on that hose, but I think it would work on a 164 as well. So maybe another option for that short length of hose. I don't want to go back in there ever again though, on either car. I busted one tab on the basket as well, seems almost impossible to get it out of the tank without breaking something.
Charles
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Status: I have 2ft 6in of material remaining after doing a late model with the 4in plus 2in hoses. One needy soul has two cars with early serial numbers and probably needs two 2in pieces. I'll be sending him a 6in piece. If one car needs the 4in piece, he'll have material in hand. If not, then he'll have a 2in piece left over. Another needy soul requires only a 2" piece. I have cars which will eventually need 8in of the stuff, so I have another foot available for others. Just an update.

Alternates suggested include Ford and BMW dealers, and DiFatta sent me a piece of a Parker product I haven't identified yet. They have a vast product line, and some of their materials may well be rated for immersec service....but I don't know that for a fact. There was one other supplier mentioned somewhere but I don't remember the name. Some folks on the board have limited amounts of material left over from doing their fuel circuits. And Gates may get back into production some time. When and if that happens, you'll be able to get the material without the overhead burden of postage charges on tiny amounts of hose.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Folks,

I have just today noticed that autoparts2020 have a notice on their web page that the stuff is IN STOCK for their stores. These guys are the ones who had two (2) pieces in hand in Chicago a few weeks ago, and I committed to buy them. They may have more. If you want it, look into getting it. I was showing the material to another motor-head friend and saw the "in-stock" annotation.

Michael

AutoParts2020 :: Gates Submersible Fuel Line Hose
 

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I'm thinking that is what I need for my L. About a week ago starting took longer and longer even though cranking was fine now it will not fire. I'm going to pull fuel pump to see if the hose is split.
 

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MrT- Thanks for the info. I found that a local independent parts house who I buy all my non-Alfa stuff from can get this hose. So, if anyone in the Houston area needs it, call Shaver Auto Parts. That said, I'll still buy the stuff from you if no one else takes it.

AlfaTango1- Test your fuel pressure before tearing into the fuel pump assembly. There are other things that can cause the condition you describe. If it's a split fuel hose in the tank, you will see that fuel pressure will not build quickly under cranking. Also, if you get the motor to fire, fuel pressure will drop to zero very quickly after you shut the motor down. If these conditions do not exist, then your problem maybe elsewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Some folks have found splits hard to see. In the case of the 4" piece on the wife's S, it was very hard to see looking up into the hose. Even after pulling the braid off the outside, you have to twist the hose just right to expose the split (and then you can see it's an inch and a half long). A casual visual inspection, or even one somewhat more intensive than casual, is not guaranteed to reveal even a huge split. Just a note.

Michael
 

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I'm thinking that is what I need for my L. About a week ago starting took longer and longer even though cranking was fine now it will not fire. I'm going to pull fuel pump to see if the hose is split.

Tee in a pressure gauge to fuel rail pressure inlet hose first and verify you have a pressure problem. You can also do a volume test with pressure hose into a measured container and time of 15 seconds x 4 to see if you can get a pint of fuel in a minute.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I'm even more simple-minded than that. If I suspect a fuel supply problem, I stuff extra fuel into the intake. If she starts, then she was short of fuel. That's what the wife's car did....hard starting after sitting for hours -- crank, crank, crank, ...., sputter, maybe go, maybe die. Low power (probably running lean and burning plugs). I juiced the intake plenum with a little proper brake cleaner and zoom, off she starts like gangbusters. Instant confirmation of fuel starvation.

Could have been the filter. But the fuel need is greatest under load, so flow restriction at the filter would have reduced operating pressure under load and really caused a power deficiency. A split hose would reduce the fuel pressure by a power-independent amount, causing not significantly greater lean-ness at load than at idle.

Or so it appears to me. So, when it didn't falter under load but wouldn't start well, I suspected the split hose. When extra HC fired it off well, I was pretty convinced. When the problem worsened with time, I suspected the split was growing worse. We finally took it off the road a week before I acquired the special hose, and it started up great immediately after replacing the pieces.

I added these comments to the thread because I thought they dealt with diagnosis of the problem. I hope I am not misleading anyone. The flow test Steve mentions is pretty conclusive, but I am not certain how well a plugged filter might mimic the same thing. Couple the flow test with a pressure stability after shutdown, and you'd have a very conclusive test. I just like spraying HC into the intake, I guess.

Michael
 
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