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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,
work on my alfa is progressing nicely now. car is at the mechanic and hopefully i will not need too many parts as that will hold up the work.

we have opened the engine and noted that it needs a rebore and maybe facing of block. where do you usually get a complete gasket set? i have bought in the past and i think i had done so from Afra.

also, what i would also wish to note is if the head can take unleaded fuel, or do i need to change the seating of the valves?

your earliest help really appreciated.

regards
charles
 

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Charles,

I've bought several gasket sets from various vendors in Europe. I noted there is one from Afra being sold on this BB at the moment (or is it the 2600 register?). Anyway, the ones from Europe are good enough, with the possible exception of the rear plate gasket, which I believe to be incorrectly cut. It is a small correction. You must also buy the front and rear seal separately. I think I paid around $200 ea for the full gasket set (excluding seals), but it might have been less.

If you have to re-bore, I can recommend Venolia for new pistons. Reliable vendor. I bought my first set from them for this car around 1972.

Good luck with the rebuild.
 

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Hi Charles
If we are talking about a 2600 engine.. a rebore might be risky unless you only intend to smooth out the sleeves . OKP and Afra offer very good sets of pistons and sleeves ..even if a bit pricey...
Regards
herve
 

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Herve,

I'll admit, when Charles used the term "rebore" and "reface the block", I leaped to the assumption he was referring to a 102/2000, as these terms are typical for a cast iron block.

Having said that, I've got 2 sets of used cylinders for my FNM and am interested to find someone that will bore sleeves so I can use them again. It's pretty pricey to buy new cylinders for this car.

Anybody have a recommendation?
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi All, thanks for your comments. it is a 2000 block. i am meeting the mechanic tomorrow and will inform all on what is happening. would like to know about the seatings, are these required for unleaded fuel?
thanks
charles
 

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Charles,

I'm probably going to order one or two sets of 102 pistons in the relatively near term. Not sure if we can get a better deal for 3 sets, but it can't hurt to ask. If you're interested, let me know when you find out what you need.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Don and all,

i do need the cylinders together with a load of expensive parts and have started looking here and there, so any help on how i can make some savings is appreciated. the list is hereunder.

on the other hand, i would appreciate to know if unleaded fuel can be used or if i have to change the seating of the valves.

102.00.06.030.00/03 27 10 Oil filter
102.02.02.030.04 7 4 Pistons +30 oversize
1306.16.006.M1 7 1 Connecting rod bearings -10 undersize Set
1306.10.072.M1 7 1 Main bearings -10 undersize Set
102.00.07.022.00 29 1 Water pump complete

1356.48.036 54 2 Bumper pad for rear axle

102.00.21.507.00 51 4 Distance-Piece to secure rubber pads for upper arms
1356.58.067 57 8 Ball-joint cap
1365.63.417 48 1 Dust-excluding bellows for cable between intermediate lever and hand-brake lever
102.04.42.321.00 48 1 Dust-excluding bellows
102.00.25.509.00 54 4 Rubber tubing at each end of suspension coil spring
102.00.25.051.00 54 2 Bottom rubber bearing for suspension coil springs
102.00.25.052.00 54 2 Top rubber bearing for suspension coil springs
102.04.25.528.00 54 2 Top spacer for right-hand coil spring
102.00.21.070.00 53 2 Girling Shock-absorber

605.16.755 2 Tampone spider
20.1622 1 Set gaskets

best regards

charles
 

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Charles,

I've recently been down the same road you are on, so will attempt to dig into my short-term memory for answers. Probably better that you ask about stuff that happened 20 years ago, but I digress.

First - if your priority is to save money, give up now. It simply is not possible to save any significant money on what you're trying to do. You can expend immense amounts of time trying, but it will require massive amounts of dumb luck to get any of the important bits at less than the going price. Get ready, and pop open your check book.

Oil filter - OKP Be sure you have ALL of the internal parts. Check the parts book closely. If you don't - find them. Jay may chime in on this, but it will be a longer and more detailed version of what I just said.

Pistons. Venolia. Expect about $700 for the set, but it may be less if we pool our orders. I'll be taking two blocks to the machine shop next week and will know what I need about a week after that.

Rod bearings, Main bearings, Water pump rebuild kit - OKP. Expensive. Go ahead and spend the money, because any of us that have NOS sets will almost certainly hold onto them for the day we need them. Not sure you'll find a new complete water pump anywhere, although you might find an well-used one and can rebuild it with kit from OKP.

Bumper pad for rear axle - check TST-Rettburg on Ebay in Germany (eBay - eine der größten deutschen Shopping-Websites). Possibly OKP. I've seen them advertised various places. Might be the same as 105 part, but haven't checked this myself.

Some of what you describe in your last section doesn't quite make sense to me, and I don't have time at the moment to dig through the catalog matching up part numbers. Here's the only answers I have off the top of my head...

4 Distance pieces, must mean the upper bump stops for the front suspension. Heinbrand in Germany, or possibly Haeckner.

"Ball-joint" cap must mean tie-rod end cap, as the car does not use "ball joints" for the front suspension. If this what you mean, OKP.

Rubber tubing for rear springs I solved with new parts from a Mitsubishi. Worked perfectly. You might Google on the Alfabb, as it was someone else that provided the Mitsu part number. I ordered them on-line. If you don't find the part number, check back with me and I'll try to dig up that history.

The "bottom rubber bearing" is just the steel cup with a rubber coating. Mine were OK, but you might cut out an old innertube if yours are truly gone. The coating on mine would provide little more than anti-chafing. (I need to confirm my short term memory on this one)

Top rubber bearing for suspension coil springs? Not familiar. Front or rear? Front doesn't use rubber cushions.

Top spacer for right hand (rear) coil spring. I'll look around, but this is an aluminum assembly with rubber inside. It doesn't really look like a rubber piece until you inspect it. Are you sure you don't have it?

Girling shocks???? Go buy a set of Konis. Girling was a cheap OEM shock. You'll appreciate the ride improvement from Konis.

Quick estimate for all the above? $3,000+
 

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Don, Charles

I should mentin CPS Pistons in Turin, Italy to you.
They make excellent pistons, extremely good and will modernise any shape, size, skirt etc. Including pins, rings etc.

I mention them because they have made me and another 102 set before with excellent results. In particular, they are fast (10 days) to deliver. And a very good price: less than half OKP prices.

Tony Stephens at Alfastop has some front and rear shocks.

Valve seats: as far as I can tell, as long as you use 97RON fuel as a minimum you should be fine with 'standard' seats.
 

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Charles,

I have hoped that someone more expert than me would comment on your question about valve seats. My opinion, based upon a bit of reading and 40 years of building engines as a hobby, is that you will be fine with what you have.

The seat grind angle will be fine, using modern concepts to achieve a good seal. The seat material in the 102 is "hardened" steel, although the specific alloy and hardness is unknown to me. The concern for switching an old engine from leaded operation to unleaded is primarily focused on flat-head engines where the valve seat is ground directly into the cast-iron of the engine block, which is most definitely NOT hardened. Our Alfas are not designed this way, so it really does not apply.

The 102 engine can require periodic maintenance that more modern engines do not. Depending upon the way it is driven, you may have to do a valve job, or ring job at something much less than 100,000 miles. I seem to recall Jay telling us he usually had to go in at about 25000 mile intervals. I can't speak to that, and have a very hard time imagining myself amassing 25000 miles in the lifetime remaining to me.

By the way, I cannot speak to the Italian piston source. I assume they are fine. My opinion is that you could buy pistons from any of the modern sources and probably be fine. If you are in Europe, then a European source probably makes more sense. If in the US, I'd buy locally.

I expect to be talking to Venolia by the end of next week getting prices on pistons. I don't know yet if I need zero, one, or two sets. This will depending upon the block inspection after they've been cleaned up. I know that a basic piston from Venolia is roughly $100 each. To this you can add rings, pins, and pin retainers. They generally provide Total Seal rings. if your pins are fine and you prefer, for instance, Hastings or Deves, then you can put together your own final configuration. I see Deves sets offered on Ebay fairly regularly for an attractive price, and have always been happy with them. I happen to have one set of Ate rings in stock, so if I end up using a standard diameter I'll use them.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Pistons and water pump

Hi All,

thanks for all the contributions.

i got a price from AFRA for the cylinders, these cost € 916.78. does anyone have a firm price from the others? final price from Venolia or CPS (I have asked for a price). a german friend of mine suggested that a friend of his makes them for me and they are very hard wearing. these would be ideal if you do a great deal of km annually. I am not anticipating of doing more than 1000 km, i do not even do that in my Jaguar when i actually am out practically every Sunday in it.

i have also enquired for a water pump and this costs € 560, quite a shock for me. any ideas?

as for the oil filter, i decided to buy an ordinary one and have a spacer made to make it fit. AFRA offered the filters at € 19.50.

the gasket set costs € 265 from AFRA and i think i am going for this as i am going practically for all the rest except the above mentioned if i manage to save.

Don, can you give me more information about the Mitsubishi rubbers?

look forward to your comments,

charles
 

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Charles,

What do you mean by the "cylinders"? The 2000 does not use replaceable cylinders. If your existing cylinders are worn you just have them bored to one of the approved oversizes and buy pistons to fit.

I believe I noted above that a set of pistons from Venolia is approximately $400USD, plus rings and wrist pins if you want them. Rings can cost anywhere from $70 to $170 for a set, depending upon which ones you buy and where you buy them.

Have you researched the AlfaBB for the Mitisubishi spring insulators?
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Pistons not cylinders

Sorry, pistons not cylinders, it must have been too early in the morning that i was still switched off.

i do not know how to search around here (for the Mitsubishi part).
regards

charles
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hi Dan

i take the last sentence back, terribly easy, will have a look at your restoration when i am relaxed.

regards
charles
 

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I did a quick look and cannot find a record of the Mitsubishi spring cover info within the AlfaBB. It was another member here on the BB that provided me with the part numbers, so perhaps he will surface and comment. At some point I'll dig through my files to see if I can find the receipt, but as I kept literally every receipt from my restoration it is about 18" thick or more. Might take some time.

As I said in an earlier post, there is no inexpensive way to do a 102 restoration.

You implied in one of your above posts that you didn't mind using parts that were not as "hard wearing" if it saved you some money. This is a mind set that I am not particularly fond of. There is only one way to do a mechanical repair, and that is the "correct" way. Knowingly doing an inferior job to save a few dollars is a very poor choice, in my opinion, and a disservice to the car.

Note that there are no pistons that are significantly "harder wearing" than others. The wear characteristics are pretty much a factor of the long stroke and relatively short rods. Modern forged pistons may have better operating and wear characteristics, but I wouldn't be certain of that for daily street driving.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hi Don,
i think you got me wrong, i did not imply that i need to do some saving on the restoration, believe me, i have not as yet tried to save any money. just imagine, i spent, if i remember well, well over a € 1000 on panels from the Belgian supplier just to leave them there as my panel beater wanted to do a better job and he did. (if you know anyone wanting these i will be glad to pass them on and recuperate part of the expense).
i have no idea what the difference is in the pistons. i am about to ordered them from AFRA but you say that they cost less from somewhere else, i am willing to listen. My German friend suggested a German supplier at an expense of over €2000. i was tempted to order these as i would want to do the job once but then, when he heard what mileage i cover he said that it would be waste of money. i have just got an offer of € 160 per piston from CPS (someone suggested them) but i am not sure what they include.
even for the gasket set i seem to be paying nearly double what you pay but i would rather get everything from one source unless the saving is great and the product is more that satisfactory.
i hope to find some time to see to your restoration over this weekend, in the meantime, please inform what price for the pistons from Venolia.
regards

charles
 

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Charles,

In my previous post I stated that the Venolia pistons were quoted right at $100 USD each for a plain piston. You can choose to purchase their rings, or from some other source, and you can choose to re-use your pins, or buy new ones. A full set of pistons, matching rings and pins will cost approximately $750, including various extra charges (credit card fee, hazardous material fee, etc). I'm not sure what the freight will be to your location.

I don't know the current exchange rate to the Euro, but if it is around $1.40 = 1 Euro then the total would be around €535 for the entire set including all parts, plus freight.

I bought my first set of 102 pistons from Venolia in 1972. I am very happy with their quality. They are primarily a "custom" manufacturer, so prefer to have your piston in-hand to ensure conformity. I am going to have two sets made shortly, so can provide them the necessary sample. If you want a set you will need to determine the diameter of your cylinder bore, after inspection, boring, and honing by your machine shop. You can then order direct from Venolia.
 

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Charles,

I found the spring insulator information.

Mitsubishi part number MR272656

I ordered from https://www.oemmitsubishiparts.com

Four of them cost me $69.57 including shipping to my home in Nevada.

Good luck,
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Pistons from CPS

on Marc's suggestion, i have contacted CPS in Turin and they have offered me pistons complete at € 160 each excluding VAT. what do you think? has anyone else tried these?
 
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