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I have a 1300 Giulietta engine with the numbers AR00102*09215*. Cannot figure out what year/model this engine was from, anyone know?

Thanks
 

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Both the "0" and "2" in "102" in "AR00102" seem to be a different (wider and rounder) font than in other positions ("AR00" and "09215").
Compared to other engines (the picture below is from a 1961 Spider engine that's for sale here), the spacing to the asterisks between the tipo designation and the serial number seems to be off as well.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Both the "0" and "2" in "102" in "AR00102" seem to be a different (wider and rounder) font than in other positions ("AR00" and "09215").
Compared to other engines (the picture below is from a 1961 Spider engine that's for sale here), the spacing to the asterisks between the tipo designation and the serial number seems to be off as well.
Yes that was what I thought too from the photo, but when I actually inspected the engine in person those things don't show up. Also the underlying alloy casting surface behind the numbers has not been filed off or tampered with in any way that I can see.

All the other features of the block also appear to match the normal 1300 engines from 1961. You also have to ask why anyone would fake a number on a 1300 engine anyway as it’s not as if it is pretending to be a veloce or speciale.

All very strange. We contacted the Alfa museum documentation people but they have no records of the chassis number of the car it came from or this engine number.
 

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Check the AR in front of the engine number more closely, the shape of these letters is very distinct in the original stampings and cannot be found in the usual stamp sets.

Maybe it used to be a 105 engine which has the engine number at the gearbox flange and a blank field where the current stamping sits and got 'converted'
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Check the AR in front of the engine number more closely, the shape of these letters is very distinct in the original stampings and cannot be found in the usual stamp sets.

Maybe it used to be a 105 engine which has the engine number at the gearbox flange and a blank field where the current stamping sits and got 'converted'
I've compared it another 102 engine block and the lettering looks very similiar. I also previously checked for signs of a 105 block switch but there is no indication of that, quite a lot of small casting differences when you start to examine them closely side by side.

I can't explain this unless someone was making counterfeit blocks back in the 60's ! Another person mentioned this could have been a replacement block from a spare parts run early in its life, but I have found no evidence so far that spare blocks were numbered differently.

If anyone has come across something similar with other Alfa engines from other years let me know.
 

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Interesting puzzle.
Since Alfa have confirmed this as an unknown number, it would seem that there are two possibilities left. Firstly, it started as an unstamped replacement block to which a full but incorrect serial has been added. I don’t believe this to be true; most of the numbers and letters are close enough in appearance and alignment to be factory stampings.
The one exception to me is that doublestruck “2” which does not match the second one or any of the stamping I have seen, including my own.
1676401

The other possibility is that it is a production block whose stamping has been altered for some reason. Looking at possible scenarios the most likely would seem to be that a 1960 Berlina block AR00100 has been altered into AR00102.
I’ll be the first to admit that the photo does not show any sign of an over stamp, but I can’t think of any other change that makes sense. There would not be much point making a 106 block into a 102, and anything else would need a restamp on two of the digits.
Is there any chance that examination under different lighting will show something we can’t see in the present shot?
What can you tell us about the engine itself? Is it a bare block or complete engine? Any history?
I know that 750/101 engines are not common in Australia.
Joe
 

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I'm going to go with a replacement block that was stamped with Factory stamps - there are at least two sets in private hands that I'm aware of

The numbers are almost right, but the alignment seems to head up to the RH corner & in 30+ years of Giulietta I have never seen engine stamps misaligned. My take is that the stamps were placed in a purpose built jig at the Factory & pressed into the block with an even hydraulic pressure

From Fusi:

The Series I 750 Sprint engine numbers run from 1315*00011 right up to 1315*09002 - (the Spiders are in the 40000-44000 range)

Then the 750 block morphed into the 101 block but still with the 1315 designation from 1315*010001 to 1315*014299 (note the gap between the above 09002 and 010001)

The true 101 numbers follow consecutively 00102*14300 to 00102*33882 in 1962

Is there a black Data plate with his engine number on it ??

Ciao
Greig
 

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Grieg,
I can’t agree with your comment about the “uphill” alignment being a problem.
Here are a few random examples showing the same issue. I don’t believe they are all field stamped blocks.
I do agree that the factory process resulted in an even depth of stamping with the exception of the AR which tends to be a little light. I believe that is all evident in the image
in post #3, with the exception of that funky double stamped and miss shaped first “2” .
Good question about the data plate info, although of course there were very few 101 cars that were marked with a full engine number.

Joe


1676574

1676571
1676572
 

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Hi Joe

Hmm my engine numbers are all centered in the block, but that 00111 Ti block is definitely off center too & yes agree with you on all points

This one is a conundrum as the number 09215 falls in between the missing 'gap' in Fusi between he pure 750 blocks and the first of the 101 blocks 010001 both of which were designated 1315 ??

This patch in Sprint production was such a mix up, they were changing engine types, then there was that short lived designation of 10104 & 10105 for the US spec Sprints & Spiders, the Series I's had just morphed into the Series II's, at Pininfarina the LWB Spiders arrived 500 cars earlier than the Parts Manual says they did.... fun & games

I learn every day !!

Ciao
Greig
 

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All very strange. We contacted the Alfa museum documentation people but they have no records of the chassis number of the car it came from or this engine number.
As a matter of interest what is the chasis number of the car?
Maybe a clue to what Greig said about the car being one of those in the Series I/II transition:

This patch in Sprint production was such a mix up, they were changing engine types, then there was that short lived designation of 10104 & 10105 for the US spec Sprints & Spiders, the Series I's had just morphed into the Series II's, at Pininfarina the LWB Spiders arrived 500 cars earlier than the Parts Manual says they did.... fun & games
Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Interesting puzzle.
Since Alfa have confirmed this as an unknown number, it would seem that there are two possibilities left. Firstly, it started as an unstamped replacement block to which a full but incorrect serial has been added. I don’t believe this to be true; most of the numbers and letters are close enough in appearance and alignment to be factory stampings.
The one exception to me is that doublestruck “2” which does not match the second one or any of the stamping I have seen, including my own.

The other possibility is that it is a production block whose stamping has been altered for some reason. Looking at possible scenarios the most likely would seem to be that a 1960 Berlina block AR00100 has been altered into AR00102.
I’ll be the first to admit that the photo does not show any sign of an over stamp, but I can’t think of any other change that makes sense. There would not be much point making a 106 block into a 102, and anything else would need a restamp on two of the digits.
Is there any chance that examination under different lighting will show something we can’t see in the present shot?
What can you tell us about the engine itself? Is it a bare block or complete engine? Any history?
I know that 750/101 engines are not common in Australia.
Joe
Hi Joe, I tried taking some photos from a few different angles and the one below was the best I could get. The engine is complete and working. I've attached a photo of it below and another number I found. The car was originally sold into the Italian domestic market I believe and imported to Australia in 2013 with this engine.

If anyone wants to see any other photos to see if we can identify the origin of the engine let me know.

1676993


1676989


1676990
 

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Discussion Starter #14
<snip>

Is there a black Data plate with his engine number on it ??

Ciao
Greig
No this car doesn't have a data plate and doesn't appear it ever had one fastened under the bonnet like some other photos I've seen. Below are some photos of the car and other ID's.

1676998


1676995
1676996
1676997


\
1676994
 

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Discussion Starter #15
As a matter of interest what is the chasis number of the car?
Maybe a clue to what Greig said about the car being one of those in the Series I/II transition:

Mike
Chassis number is 169077, which places it in the correct range for 1961 (168734 to 171903 from what I have read on the Interwebs). Engine is 09215 but the known range for 1961 is 23836 to 31542.
 
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