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Discussion Starter #1
Gentlemen,

I am new here so please bear with me if i accidently bring up something thats already been discussed or accidently enter into a touchy subject, it is by no means done deliberately. I have no intention offending anyone whatsoever.

I am considering making an offer for a car for sale from a well know dealer in Belgium. I also tried to buy the same car approx. 2 years ago from a private seller but this experience ended up rather strange leaving me having spent a bit of money but with no car. Reading through the various posts in here, i believe the company selling the car is well known although allegedly with some pro's and cons.

The car is described as follows:-

Chassis 750 004
Original color: Rosso/Beige.
First owner: Nerini Roberto Italy
Accident in 1967 and repaired at Autodelta shop as a TZ 2
Engine, brake, suspensions have been rebuilt
The engine is experimental Autodelta with very special parts

Does anyone know this car ? And is it what it promises to be ?
Since i will have to part with my ex. Autodelta GTA in order fund this potential purchase i need to be absolutely certain before forking out a lot of hard earned money......

Please feel free to answer here, PM or email me.

Best regards, and thank you in advance
 

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First of all, I have not seen the car nor do I know anything more about its history than Olcyk published on his web site in his book (downloadable as PDF files here). What stands out is that there does NOT seem to be much documented history about the car (no race results and no period pictures that show the car as TZ2 in 1968 or 1969). If there isn't any credible documentation for the claim that Autodelta rebuilt the car as a TZ2 at that time, I'd be VERY cautious.
 

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I would say that if any TZ were converted into a TZ2 as early as 1967, the result would have shown up somewhere at some moment over the last 40 years. Every single original TZ2 in existence has distinctive features allowing to identify it as such, with only some possible confusion between cars that were more or less identical at a certain moment.

I've never heard about any evidence of any TZ having ever been converted into TZ2 at Autodelta at any time, except the very first example such as 750112 reputedly built on the renumbered chassis 072, as per the Alfa archives.

750072 "non costruita" / trasformata in TZ2 N. 750112 (Zagato #781 ?)
26.11.64 prodotta dalla Zagato "105.11 abbassata"
12.2.65 consegna a Alfa Romeo - MI come TZ2 N. 750112
I would be happy to be shown such an evidence, but I'm afraid it's unlikely to happen.

So far the entry for chassis 004, the one claimed for the car you're referring to, is as follows:

750004 rosso/beige
25.7.63 Alfa Romeo Milano prototipo "muletto Autodelta"
30.7.65 Firenze SCAR Autostrade
My opinion is thus as cautious as what has been posted above.
 

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'Alfa Romeo - Zagato SZ TZ' by M. Minerbi

Hi All,

I checked the books on this chassisnumber.

Marcello Minerbi in his book 'Alfa Romeo - Zagato SZ TZ' from 1985 (La Mille Miglia Editrice) states a complete list with all the SZ and TZ chassisnumbers. I consider this book the first quality source of TZ info, although the information is a dated by now.
On chassisnumber 750 004 he says; 'Vettura da competizione dell'Alfa Romeo. Nessuna notizia.' / 'Alfa Romeo racing car. No news.'
Cars with a known history are mentioned in this book. The fact that 004 hasn't, makes me wonder what happened to this car.

In his book 'Alfa Romeo TZ', published in 2002, Philippe Olzcyk says the following about 750 004: 'Colour: Red/Beige, Type: Race, Date: 1964'. He adds the following info: 'FI 318789. 28/4/1966: Nerini Roberto, after an accident the car was rebuilt as a TZ2. 2002: Italy, car with a TZ2 body'.

According to the 'Guida all'identificazione Alfa Romeo' by Maurizio Tabucchi, Giorgio Nada Editore, published in 2000, chassisnumber 750 004 was built in 1963. No further information.

I would be very curious to see photographs that show the accident or the damaged car after the crash. Also I would like to see pictures of this car in the period 1966 - 2002. Photographs must have been taken of the car in his TZ-2 disguise. It's too unique not to photograph it!

Any additions to that? I am open to suggestions!

Ciao, Olaf
 

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I would say that if any TZ were converted into a TZ2 as early as 1967, the result would have shown up somewhere at some moment over the last 40 years. Every single original TZ2 in existence has distinctive features allowing to identify it as such, with only some possible confusion between cars that were more or less identical at a certain moment.

I've never heard about any evidence of any TZ having ever been converted into TZ2 at Autodelta at any time, except the very first example such as 750112 reputedly built on the renumbered chassis 072, as per the Alfa archives.

My opinion is thus as cautious as what has been posted above.
Honestly,there's more chance that GIORDANENGO rebuilt the car at one time rather than Autodelta....750004 is so famous that ... nobody knows anything about it !!! No doubt that it's a premium investment.

Mr Philippe could help us with the 'Giordanengo specials' because he is very knowledgable about the$e car$... (at lea$t how to $ell them...:D)

C A U T I O N !!!

Regards
sébastien
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Gentlemen,

First of all thank you very much for your replies, both here and on the PM's i have received. It is very much appreciated to actually receive well founded and well argumented answers, and even with a twist of humor.

Deep down you have just confirmed my own suspision but still somewhere i had hoped for a good excuse to buy the car :cool: But needless to say i will now leave it alone, and prepare my GTA for another season on Europe's eternal racing tracks.

At the same time it also leaves me with a somewhat sad feeling thinking why the heck is it even necessary to ask this question. Why the heck can't people just keep a bit of good old fashioned honesty.

Anyway, i will leave it with mixed feelings........a bit like when your mother in law drives over the cliff in you brand new Mercedes Benz :(

Once again, thanks a million.
 

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What was he asking by the way? If it was supposed to be done by AutoDelta I would assume it to be high six figures or so right? The last real TZ2 I saw in person was offered at 1.2 million.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I do not think it would be proper of me to comment in the open on a price discussion since the seller is not openly showing his price idea but i do not think the car will end up costing a million......actually quite far away.
What i can say is that the car does not claim to be an original TZ2 nor is it a TZ1 any longer. It is subsequently realisticly priced as a TZ1, provided it actually was originally a TZ1 of course.
Best regards,
 

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TZ1's are not worth a million and a converted TZ2 is not either. I think first sieries cars are just around 300K or so.
 

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By adding some information of names, dates, and photos, I would say that #750004 was raced by Romano "Sangrilà" Martini in early 1966, before he acquired TZ2 #750113. He is mentioned at 19660327 Coppa Gallenga/19660411 Coppa Marathon (with photo)/19660417 Stallavena-Boscochiesanuova/and as a DNA at 19660425 Monza 1000km.

From mid 1966 to mid 1967 Roberto Dolfi is once listed with a ex Sangrilà car, entries I have found so far are: 19660501 Coppa della Collina/19660519 Coppa Città di Volterra/19660612 Antignano-Monteburrone (photo is in the TZ-book, could be ex Sangrilà)/19660717 Circuito del Mugello (accident-fire)/19670425 Monza 1000km/19670430 Targa Tiber.

The only entry I found of Roberto Nerini is 19670618 Camucia-Cortona

Two photos are not much, but SCAR was based at Firenze, Martini lived in Firenze, Dolfi is listed with an ex Sangrilà TZ, a photo shows him driving "FI 318789", and the Nerini entry makes a complete record of at least 3 owners/drivers in one and a half year.

Since Nerini is mentioned in only one race (complete Auto Italiana 1964-1969), when did he sell it, who had the accident in 1968, who rebodied it to TZ2, and why wasn't is raced anymore, while other TZ2s were still on the tracks?
 

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According to the ACI papers dated 19660428 TZ #750004 was sold on 19660421 from SCAR Autostrada, Firenze, to Roberto Nerini, Prato. This would mean that Sangrilà raced for SCAR, and Dolfi for Nerini
 

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how many people from this thread have seen the car ? just curious !
me i saw it
Welcome to AlfaBB, hansgta!

Why would looking at the car matter? Nobody doubts that it exists and is for sale. The trouble is that documentation seems to be missing and therefore its history is obscure.

The question that determines the degree of originality and therefore value is "has anybody seen documentation", not "has anybody seen the car."
 

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Welcome to AlfaBB, hansgta!

Why would looking at the car matter? Nobody doubts that it exists and is for sale. The trouble is that documentation seems to be missing and therefore its history is obscure.

The question that determines the degree of originality and therefore value is "has anybody seen documentation", not "has anybody seen the car."

ok, then has anybody seen documentation & the car ?
 

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HansGTA, having seen the car, what was your opinion on it? and having been to look at it did you ask what, if any documentation existed?
my opinion is that car is old, very old paint, very old interior, and i have no doubt about the comments posted here, some members have a personnal agenda. my 2 cents

the engine was restore by JE alfa in england and i have no doubt that the engine was an
special tz specs...i have a photo somewhere
 

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Authenticity

my opinion is that car is old, very old paint, very old interior, and i have no doubt about the comments posted here, some members have a personnal agenda. my 2 cents

the engine was restore by JE alfa in england and i have no doubt that the engine was an
special tz specs...i have a photo somewhere
Hello Hans,

Could you sum up what you know about (the history of) this car having seen it and give us a clue whether you think this can be backed up with proper documentation?

Ciao, Olaf
 

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Hans, what about the documents. I am not sure about the 'personel agenda' bit? are you saying you believe and could verify that this car is the 'real deal' ?
 
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