[Ennio]

I have some questions regarding koni shocks and I think that maybe someone of you, being alfetta/gtv6 owners can help.

What is the difference between red, orange and yellow konis?
Which would work best for my car if I intend daily driver or weekend city driving?
If I decide to go for used konis which info must I ask for?
What would be a fair price for a good used set of konis for my 82 gtv2.0?

 

[brookstroutr]

Ennio,

Yellows = Sport
Red = Heavy Duty
Orange must be normal setting.

Rule of thumb on used parts is 50% of new value. Koni Sports here are about $125 USD each corner new.

 

[Ennio]

Thanks for your prompt reply! All of those shocks have adjustable ride? Will yellow (sports) make a harsh ride compared with red (heavy duty)? I know that konis last VERY long, so a good set of used ones (not abused) is good deal?
Thanks

 

[sfalfa]

Ennio,

I believe only the Yellow (Sport) has three different settings:
1. Hard
2. Medium
3. Soft

I have Yellows on my Sedan - set to medium, and Reds on the coupe. I've never heard of Orange? Honestly, I think springs, and torsion bar settings make more of a difference in a daily driver's "drivability". I don't really notice the shocks when switching between cars as much as I do rear springs and the fact that I have a larger front swaybar on the coupe. That's just me though - perhaps others have a finer sense of the differences.

As for purchasing used - try to find out how many miles have they run, are there any leaks, condition of all the contact points, etc.

 

[Grant]

The Reds are gas pressurized, the yellows are hydraulic only. The yellows are infinitely adjustable on rebound only. On compression, they are not even stiff. They would make the ride feel more taught on a stock car and make the most difference here. When you ahve stiffer spring rates on the car, the Konis leave you wanting more IMO. For daily driving, I don't think there is anything wrong with running yellows. If you are looking for used, buy yellows, they have a better chance of being in good shape, the Reds are no longer available and haven't been for some time I believe.

I also think shocks can make a big difference, more so than springs! When I had yellows, on the soft setting, the ride would be quite nice. But if I bumped up the rebound to be more in line with the spring rates, I could even over do it and make the ride jiggly. Now, I'm running bilsteins and the ride is very harsh but performs better on the track.

Good luck.

And as far as I'm aware of, the konis dno't have 3 settings, you twist the shaft as much as you want. There are no steps or stages.

 

[sfalfa]

And as far as I'm aware of, the konis dno't have 3 settings, you twist the shaft as much as you want. There are no steps or stages.

Could be - it's been a long time since I fiddled with them, for some reason I'm recalling a notch or tab or something that marked the three settings, but that's possibly a hallucination

 

[Alfajay]

Koni shocks

I recently bought a set of 4 Koni red shocks for my 101 Giulia spider from ajusa.com. They were a heck of a deal - about $95 each as I recall. Free shipping, no sales tax (unless you live in California). While I haven't priced Koni shocks for other Alfa models at the ajusa site, I assume they are equally reasonable.

Yea, Koni reds (and I'll bet yellows) are infinitely adjustable - not just "small" "medium" and "large" (or whatever).

Anyhow, I have no affiliation with ajusa - I just found them with a Google search when I was trying to save that last nickel on shocks.

 

[Ennio]

Thanks for your comments. My car has stock suspension. By now I would only install konis (seems like yellows would be the choice), and poly bushes. Bars and springs would remaing stock for the time. Now I am preparing for the paint, then tyres and then the mods I mentioned plus, braided stainless steel brake lines.

 

[exception]

Just a thought here, I heard from a very wise mechanic that Konis are not really the smart choice. Not anymore. The Koni shocks for our cars have been developed 25 years ago, and no product improvement has gone into them since. Some newer brands that offer shocks for our cars have far better technology, with 20 years of research and material improvement to bank upon, and they're usually cheaper.

What do you think about that?
I know Konis are good, but are they really better than modern technology of 20 years later? Logic tells me they can't be...

 

[gtv27]

Just a thought here, I heard from a very wise mechanic that Konis are not really the smart choice. Not anymore. The Koni shocks for our cars have been developed 25 years ago, and no product improvement has gone into them since. Some newer brands that offer shocks for our cars have far better technology, with 20 years of research and material improvement to bank upon, and they're usually cheaper.

What do you think about that?
I know Konis are good, but are they really better than modern technology of 20 years later? Logic tells me they can't be...

Good logic, but how about backing that up with some names of what might be better?

 

[Echo Leader]

Dennis Grant (multiple SCCA Solo Championships) has an awesome website dedicated to performance tuning. Obviously it's aimed at the autocrosser, but he has some very interesting things to say about shocks. His write-up on Koni might shed some light on some thing...

He's very much against people duplicating his text, so I'll provide the link: Far North Racing*

*Note: The site has far more to it then just the shock section, and if you're at all interested in the science behind going fast, it's all worth reading.

 

[exception]

Good logic, but how about backing that up with some names of what might be better?

Well if I could've I would've.
The guy from that link seems to suggest Bilsteins, but I don't think that is Alfa specific.

If we can find out which brand makes shocks for our cars specificly, we can compare them / research. I'll ask my mechanic today.

 

[Echo Leader]

No, nothing Alfa specific in that link I provided. But I think the information on the Koni Yellow's is worth while. Especially that a guy who wins SCCA Solo championships at the National level finds them to be a good choice for an adjustable shock on a budget.

I don't think I'm 100% with you guys on the thought that somehow the Koni Yellows are an outdated design that's not up to the task. I think the entire line of Koni's products has likely been updated as technology advances and that the really important bit is in the quality and consistency of the manufacturing and quality control. Koni seems to produce a fairly consistent valving that is dyno tested (though perhaps not as rigorously as humanly possible) and their adjustability seems to have little cross-talk. So as long as that valving suits the natural frequency of the Alfa, you're good to go. Far North's thought though is that since the Koni isn't self-service revalveable, you're stuck with their valving....so if it isn't 'right' for the Alfa, you're kinda stuck with it.

 

[Zunige]

Konis are not necessarily what is outdated. The Ohio Valley chapter of the AROC visits the Koni factory every couple of years or so, and there are always improvements and advancements. What is outdated in our cars is the suspension design itself. If one wants to go with a modern suspension (coil-overs) then one could purchase the set-up offered by RSRacing. When it comes to the transaxle cars, Ron Simons is the only one who has applied modern technology, and the reviews have been excellent. If anyone is interested in the RS products, I would suggest you contact BB member "junglejustice".

Best regards,

 

[Grant]

Thanks a lot for that article Echo, that was very interesting. Koni's sound pretty good (he definitely mentioned them the most!) but it is important to keep in mind that OUR koni's for our cars might not be valved appropriately. As far as "sport" shocks go, my Koni yellows with low miles on them were too soft in compression for my use. For a stock car I think they would be very good however.

 

[Echo Leader]

NP Grant, I figured you'd like that one.

He did mention the Koni's a lot. I think there's two main reasons for that:
1. They're probably one of the biggest names out there with a fitment for almost every vehicle and many of those constitute the best "budget adjustable" shock available.
2. He used to be a Koni reseller.

You're exactly right that the Koni Yellows that are available for the Alfa might not be perfectly valved....but that issue is tied intimately with spring rates, and unsprung mass. Thus they may not be identical for every GTV6 out there once people start putting on different wheels and tires, or upping their spring rates. There's also no promises that a Bilstein or a [insert brand here] is properly valved, but Far North makes the point that Koni doesn't really allow the purchaser an easy way to revalve and I don't believe they're too open to the thought of custom valving.

Now....how many people are going to go to the lengths necessary to buy Bilsteins, measure all their suspension bits, calculate the required valving and then either learn how to personally revalve or take them to a person who can? Probably only a handfull of us would even think about it, so it might just be academic....but very interesting to think about and might have you choosing a non-Koni brand if you're going to seriously attempt to build a competition car.

This all makes me wonder about the numbers RSR uses. I believe that there's a range of spring rates, and as far as I'm aware the non-adjustable option shocks are all consistently valved. Or are they valved uniquely for each spring rate option? As a setup oriented towards competition, are shock dyno plots for the individual units available at the time of purchase? Are the non-adjustables easily revalved? It would be great if RSR was open to working with people on all this stuff....it would mean the Alfa world (specifically the transaxle guys) would have a suspension guru really helping tune to the degree needed for an honest attempt at fully sorting the suspension!

And Grant, his comments on the non-linearity of the ends of the Koni adjustment spectrum reminded me of your comments about the rock-hard nature of the Koni's rebound once you'd maxed it out.

....I think we're getting a bit away from the intent of the original question....sorry.

 

[andrewg]

Koni's race shop will custom valve a shock if you can provide the all important suspension data. Performatek sells custom valved yellow Koni's for the GTV6 & Milano to match your suspension setup. I run Andy's shock on my ITS GTV6 with great success. A nice change when the race shop custom builds you shocks is that for a few extra dollars they will move the adjuster to the top of the shock - no need to remove the shock to adjust it.

FYI -there were only two Koni's for Alfetta/GTV6/Milano - 1. Red and Yellow. The red is actually more of an orange color is some versions. The red has three adjustment points and the Yellow has five. They are not infinitely adjustable. If you did not feel the shock clicking with each adjustment then you are not doing it right.

 

[Grant]

Andrew, I have never felt clicking yet the rebound could be changed dramatically. Am I not doing it right?

 

[andrewg]

You need to year and "feel" a click. The shock shaft needs to be in just the right spot to make the adjustments. when you are in the right spot, as you rotate the shaft you will hear and feel the different adjustment spots.

 

[Echo Leader]

Will Koni's race shop and/or Andy provide shock dyno results with the custom units? I'd realized that custom valving was available, but apparently it can only be done by a few Koni Approved type places?

And the movement of the adjuster is very clutch, that was one reason I wasn't too interested in the Koni, as I knew I'd never have the time/energy to take it out everytime I wanted to adjust...

However, reading the Far North writeup, I was under the impression that the Konis were not 'positional'...as all his references were to a number of turns (eg "2 1/2 turns of adjustment" and "last 1/2 turn to full hard is useless"). Are the detents a new development?