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I did a search for the reccomended oil for the five speed, and came up with only one. Chevron Delo ESI 80W-90. Are there any others that have some experience with modern oils for this old tranny ?
Transmission oil for 5 speed in Giulia
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13,195 Posts
Trans oil for Non-moly gearbox
I was curious as well, as my trans also has non-moly rings & hubs. Checking around, I talked with "Dave" at Redline, 1-800-624-7958, told him I was looking for a Dentex substitute for non-moly syncros in a 90 weight. He suggested Redline MT - 90, GL-1. I have not tried this, has anyone else?
Gordon Raymond
I was curious as well, as my trans also has non-moly rings & hubs. Checking around, I talked with "Dave" at Redline, 1-800-624-7958, told him I was looking for a Dentex substitute for non-moly syncros in a 90 weight. He suggested Redline MT - 90, GL-1. I have not tried this, has anyone else?
Gordon Raymond
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269 Posts
old tranny non EP oil
I went to the local Chevron oil distributer and found out that Gl 1 is still commonly used in the trucking industry. He had plenty in five gallon cans, but he also called a nearby truck service and they pulled a gallon for me from their 55 gallon drum. I just had to bring my own can.
I went to the local Chevron oil distributer and found out that Gl 1 is still commonly used in the trucking industry. He had plenty in five gallon cans, but he also called a nearby truck service and they pulled a gallon for me from their 55 gallon drum. I just had to bring my own can.
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13,195 Posts
I have, seems to work fine.
Gordon Raymond
Gordon Raymond
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2,147 Posts
Gearbox oil
I´m not sure if I´m missing something, but why all this hysterical searching and experimenting with all possible kinds of gear oils when the one, Shell Dentax, recomended by the manufacturer is still in the market and for an affordable price? Are you guys all racing or what? Can anybody enlighten me?
Dennis
I´m not sure if I´m missing something, but why all this hysterical searching and experimenting with all possible kinds of gear oils when the one, Shell Dentax, recomended by the manufacturer is still in the market and for an affordable price? Are you guys all racing or what? Can anybody enlighten me?
Dennis
1973 GTV, 1969 GTV, TR4 & 1969 Roadrunner (long gone), 1967 & 1969 Corvettes
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7,178 Posts
Redline MT - 90, GL-1.
Unless they make 2 - MT90's, MT90 is a GL4 oil. Thin as piss and unless you have a VERY well sealed gearbox, will develope a leak IMO.
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148 Posts
transmission oil
Redline MT 90 is GL 4; I'm using it in my 1963 tranny (updated with the newer synchros); it works well, but yeah, I've sprung some leaks.
Redline MT 90 is GL 4; I'm using it in my 1963 tranny (updated with the newer synchros); it works well, but yeah, I've sprung some leaks.
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13,195 Posts
Guess Dave is a salesman!
Don't think I want to try that one! First, the question was for old style, non Moly syncros. Second, who need an expensive leaky mess?
In answer as to why the questions about Dentex substitutes, many of us find it a good idea to change the lube from time to time in these old gearboxes. Dentex, though available to me at a very reasonable price, is only available from my supplier in a 30 gal. drum and I may not be drummin that long! Sometimes, some of the newer products have advantages that remain mysterious unless someone tries and reports on the product.
I am VERY thankful for the feedback to me about the potential for leaks in old gearboxes with Redline MT 90, and that it IS a GL 4, NOT a GL 1. Thats what this thread is all about. Thanks! Gordon Raymond
Ohh!
Don't think I want to try that one! First, the question was for old style, non Moly syncros. Second, who need an expensive leaky mess?In answer as to why the questions about Dentex substitutes, many of us find it a good idea to change the lube from time to time in these old gearboxes. Dentex, though available to me at a very reasonable price, is only available from my supplier in a 30 gal. drum and I may not be drummin that long
! Sometimes, some of the newer products have advantages that remain mysterious unless someone tries and reports on the product.I am VERY thankful
for the feedback to me about the potential for leaks in old gearboxes with Redline MT 90, and that it IS a GL 4, NOT a GL 1. Thats what this thread is all about. Thanks! Gordon Raymond
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164 Posts
New Vs. Old Gearboxes
Maybe someone can clarify: What is the difference between old boxes and today's new ones? What is the "moly" bit about? What effect can all that have on the recommended Oil? What can go wrong if I use any 90W modern gearbox oil?
Thanks!
Naftali
Maybe someone can clarify: What is the difference between old boxes and today's new ones? What is the "moly" bit about? What effect can all that have on the recommended Oil? What can go wrong if I use any 90W modern gearbox oil?
Thanks!
Naftali
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13,195 Posts
Gearbox changes over time
This is very simplified as the purpose is just to explain the differences and results from the wrong lubricant. Older non moly boxes can be converted to use the newer moly rings and hubs at a costrolleyes I hope this helps. Gordon Raymond
Over time, Alfa has made many modifications to the internal components of the 101/105 gearboxes to improve durability and reduce maintence needs. These include some things that required a change in the type of lubricant. Early 101, 4 speed and later 5 speed gearboxes used syncro rings that had a series of groves cut around the outside of the rings. These older rings are a "non moly" ring and is lubricated with Dentex or one of the substitutes. These rings would wear and lose grip on the inside of the hubs (particularly second gear), causing a grind when shifting down into second. Sporting driving, double clutching on downshifts, still took a toll. Labor was relitively cheap and the bad ring, or ring and hub could be replaced. As time went by, (and labor rates increased) these earlier style rings were superceded by moly rings and hubs. These rings are dark grey or blackish and have a rough sandpapery surface. They require a more modern lubricant than Dentex for long life. They still wear in time, though slower, requiring less transmission R&R. Though Dentex can be used with the moly rings, it is a poor choice. If the moly lubricant is used with the old style grooved rings, they have no bite in the hubs and most if not all syncronizing effect is lost.
This is very simplified as the purpose is just to explain the differences and results from the wrong lubricant. Older non moly boxes can be converted to use the newer moly rings and hubs at a cost
rolleyes I hope this helps. Gordon Raymond
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164 Posts
Thanks, Gordon!Over time, Alfa has made many modifications to the internal components of the 101/105 gearboxes to improve durability and reduce maintence needs. These include some things that required a change in the type of lubricant. Early 101, 4 speed and later 5 speed gearboxes used syncro rings that had a series of groves cut around the outside of the rings. These older rings are a "non moly" ring and is lubricated with Dentex or one of the substitutes. These rings would wear and lose grip on the inside of the hubs (particularly second gear), causing a grind when shifting down into second. Sporting driving, double clutching on downshifts, still took a toll. Labor was relitively cheap and the bad ring, or ring and hub could be replaced. As time went by, (and labor rates increased) these earlier style rings were superceded by moly rings and hubs. These rings are dark grey or blackish and have a rough sandpapery surface. They require a more modern lubricant than Dentex for long life. They still wear in time, though slower, requiring less transmission R&R. Though Dentex can be used with the moly rings, it is a poor choice. If the moly lubricant is used with the old style grooved rings, they have no bite in the hubs and most if not all syncronizing effect is lost.
This is very simplified as the purpose is just to explain the differences and results from the wrong lubricant. Older non moly boxes can be converted to use the newer moly rings and hubs at a cost
Looked in some oil manufacturers sites. I understand that oils today have additives that make them more "slipery", to protect the gears' teeth. So probably, the moly rings can take it, and still syncronize, but not the early ones.
I have a 64 giulia spider (5 speed). Have no idea what rings are in there now. But I do have poor sync on 1st and 2nd!
Could Dentax help on worn moly rings?
Did anyone out there actually feel a difference in sync after changing to different oil???
Thanks
Naftali
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13,195 Posts
In the gearbox you mention, unless it has been upgraded, Dentex was correct. As you have no idea what's in there now, Dentex, or one of the substitutes mentioned in this thread, is worth a try. Second is the syncro that usually goes away first, so you probably will get little improvement there. Third may or may not get better. If you are planning on keeping the car, you will probably need a rebuild, done by an Alfa shop that knows how to correctly upgrade your transmission with all new moly rings, hubs and related parts. Not inexpensive, but the best way to go. Currently there is a shortage of even the moly components, as Alfa has no interest in supplying new parts for the older cars. This will change in time. You may consider replacing the whole transmission with one from a newer (moly) car, but you still must find a good one. After a conversion I would mark, near the oil filler, that the box has been converted to moly syncros, and note the proper lube in paint in that area. Gordon Raymond
, but the best way to go. Currently there is a shortage of even the moly components, as Alfa has no interest in supplying new parts for the older cars. This will change in time. You may consider replacing the whole transmission with one from a newer (moly) car, but you still must find a good one. After a conversion I would mark, near the oil filler, that the box has been converted to moly syncros, and note the proper lube in paint in that area. Gordon Raymond
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164 Posts
I did some reading on the subject. There is plenty on the net, such as:
http://www.millersoils.net/literatureDOWNLOADS/Classic_tech_talk.pdf
I understand that what you need for an old alfa is any 90 weight GL-1 oil. The GL-1 has nothing to do with viscosity (thats the 90W) or leaks, but rather that is the API (American Petroleum Institute) standerd it confirms to (like SE or SF in engine oil). The main point is that it does not have EP (extreme pressure) additives.
My '64 Giulia manual states: "To avoid damaging syncronizers never confuse the grade 90 with 90 EP"! (When all fails, read instructions...)
Good luck to all
Naftali
http://www.millersoils.net/literatureDOWNLOADS/Classic_tech_talk.pdf
I understand that what you need for an old alfa is any 90 weight GL-1 oil. The GL-1 has nothing to do with viscosity (thats the 90W) or leaks, but rather that is the API (American Petroleum Institute) standerd it confirms to (like SE or SF in engine oil). The main point is that it does not have EP (extreme pressure) additives.
My '64 Giulia manual states: "To avoid damaging syncronizers never confuse the grade 90 with 90 EP"! (When all fails, read instructions...
)Good luck to all
Naftali
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231 Posts
There are also some other companies that produce oil for classic cars:
- penrite.com ( Australia, Europa, USA )
- Castrol Classic Oils ( UK )
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/subsection.do?categoryId=9014105&contentId=7027417
- dynolite.fr ( France )
- motul.fr ( France )
- racingoil.de - Wagner Spezialschmierstoffe ( Germany )
I hope this will help you.
Zlatko
- penrite.com ( Australia, Europa, USA )
- Castrol Classic Oils ( UK )
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/subsection.do?categoryId=9014105&contentId=7027417
- dynolite.fr ( France )
- motul.fr ( France )
- racingoil.de - Wagner Spezialschmierstoffe ( Germany )
I hope this will help you.
Zlatko
tranny oil for a 1965 5 speed giulia
Dear Pat:
Years ago I had a 5 gal. special order of 90 wt. non-sulphur oil made and it is presently in the shop where I'm having my 1965 Giulia engine rebuilt, preparatory to shipping it to our recently purchased house in Colorado (where it will join it's stablemate, a 1986 GTV 6 that is already there).
Hopefully the Giulia will be ready to drive home from the shop (in NJ), then to be shipped to CO.
There should be a considerable amount of the tranny oil left in the container that has been sealed tight for several years. Let me know if you're interested.
[email protected]
Dear Pat:
Years ago I had a 5 gal. special order of 90 wt. non-sulphur oil made and it is presently in the shop where I'm having my 1965 Giulia engine rebuilt, preparatory to shipping it to our recently purchased house in Colorado (where it will join it's stablemate, a 1986 GTV 6 that is already there).
Hopefully the Giulia will be ready to drive home from the shop (in NJ), then to be shipped to CO.
There should be a considerable amount of the tranny oil left in the container that has been sealed tight for several years. Let me know if you're interested.
[email protected]
Giulia gearbox/ tranny oil-1965 giulia normale spyder
Though I'm not even remotely familiar with trannies, several years ago I bought a five gallon drum of specially made Wolfs Head 90W non sulphur oil that was still used in old tractors. Being in a farm area of New Jersey (yes, there are plenty of farms in Hunterdon County and our rural township of 33 sq. miles has only about 1600 families and there is still a need for old type oils).
Having just had a complete engine rebuild, I had the mechanic drain and refill the tranny with the Wolfs Head oil. The second gear difficulty I have had for years disappeared and has not recurred in the first 30 miles of breakin driving since the rebuild.
I've owned the Giulia since 1967 (it had 2,500 miles when I bought it and it now has about 50,000 miles). Although it may be too soon to comment on the future of the tranny shifting, I can say with certainty that it shifts better in the last two weeks than in all the 40 years I've owned it. Now if I could only get the 1986 GTV 6 to shift that smoothly (2nd gear),I'd be a happy Alfisti.
dicktahl @earthlink.net
Though I'm not even remotely familiar with trannies, several years ago I bought a five gallon drum of specially made Wolfs Head 90W non sulphur oil that was still used in old tractors. Being in a farm area of New Jersey (yes, there are plenty of farms in Hunterdon County and our rural township of 33 sq. miles has only about 1600 families and there is still a need for old type oils).
Having just had a complete engine rebuild, I had the mechanic drain and refill the tranny with the Wolfs Head oil. The second gear difficulty I have had for years disappeared and has not recurred in the first 30 miles of breakin driving since the rebuild.
I've owned the Giulia since 1967 (it had 2,500 miles when I bought it and it now has about 50,000 miles). Although it may be too soon to comment on the future of the tranny shifting, I can say with certainty that it shifts better in the last two weeks than in all the 40 years I've owned it. Now if I could only get the 1986 GTV 6 to shift that smoothly (2nd gear),I'd be a happy Alfisti.
dicktahl @earthlink.net
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602 Posts
Found the GL-1!!
Contrary to what some think the Shell Dentax is not easily found. NAPA has a GL-1, part number 65-201. And that as they say, is that!
Contrary to what some think the Shell Dentax is not easily found. NAPA has a GL-1, part number 65-201. And that as they say, is that!
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