Alfa Romeo Forums banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
After having Wes Ingram restore the Spcia mechanical fuel injection pump, fuel Injectors and thermostatic actuator for my Montreal I was concerned about properly setting up the throttle linkage and injection pump timing without having the factory set up tools. I currently have a 1972 BMW 2002tii with the German Kugelfischer injection and have also worked on a few Mercedes Benz 230SL with the Bosch mechanical injection. Both BMW and Mercedes Benz have well documented and fairly simple set up's for these systems.

After reading the factory manual, Bruce Taylors book and Wes Ingram notes I thought that I would tackle this. I am still a few mouths away from starting this engine, but I'm after something that will have me being very close once it is up and running. I plan to double check the fuel mixture with my NGK AFX wideband Air Fuel ratio monitor when running.

I was lucky to pick up the Relay Crank set up tool for Idle and full throttle A.4.0126 from a follow ALFABB member a few months ago. I was still missing the Protractor tools for the injection pump, left and right bank throttle bodies and dummy thermostatic actuator.

Making a adjustable dummy thermostatic actuator was very simple, the protractor tools just took a little more thought. I picked up some inexpensive Protractors from Amazon, a 6 inch plastic protractor for tool C.6.0159 and two 4 inch half moon stainless steel angle finder protractors for the RH and LH bank throttles C.6.0153 and C.6.0154

Making the mounts for the protractors took some time but not overly difficult, I probably spent more time making the pointer for the pump control lever.

I used the Bruce Taylor book method first for making sure all four throttle blades were closed at idle.

I tested my freshly rebuilt Wes Ingram Thermostatic Actuator on my stove @ 180 degrees Fahrenheit (82 degrees Celsius). I did this test 4 times and it consistently measured 30.5mm at 180 deg F. Wes Ingram book says that they rebuild TA to 31mm. I set my adjustable dummy TA to 30.5 and adjusted the control lever clearance .019 of a inch or .483mm

I then mounted the Protractors to the injection pump and RH and LH bank throttle bodies and set the pointers to zero for the pump and 90 degrees on the throttle body. Making sure all 8 throttle blades are completely closed at this point. My dummy adjustable TA still set at 30.5 and the control lever clearance set at .019 of a inch.

Opening the throttle and watching the sweep of the pointers and protractors everything matched page 15 of the factory workshop manual until it hit the throttle stop on the Relay Crank. I was short 8 degrees of pump travel at the wide open throttle stop. I then adjusted the Relay Crank wide open throttle stop screw and it matched the 82 degrees for the throttles and 103 degrees for the injection pump.

I'm not sure how the 8 degrees short on pump travel would have effected fuel mixture at wide open throttle, just something to keep in mind when setting up these cars. Good thing
we have Wideband Air Fuel ratios tools today for double checking these things.

-Jeff

1639621
1639622
1639623
1639624
1639625
1639626
1639627
1639628
 
  • Like
Reactions: MI Alfa

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
Jeff, your set up looks beautiful -terrifying but beautiful all the same. Wes does a nice job rebuilding the pumps. He did mine and the Thermostatic Actuator, 6 or 7 years ago when Larry at APE rebuilt the engine for a dealer (not sure about the injectors). I wish that you had made a video showing how to attach and use this equipment so that you could upload it to YouTube.

I suspect that my TA may need to be rebuilt again as well. Worse than that, the head gaskets will need to be replaced, due to what Larry the engine builder calls 'fire ring deterioration'. I watched a recent YT video where two guys pulled the fuel injection system and heads off a Montreal and put it all back together. I am encouraged that it is possible to remove the heads (while leaving the low mileage rebuilt block alone). It also seems that they were able to replace all the fuel injection related assemblies without the protractors, dummy TA's, indicators, etc.

"I'm not sure how the 8 degrees short on pump travel would have effected fuel mixture at wide open throttle, just something to keep in mind when setting up these cars."
It would seem likely the engine would lean out a bit at full throttle. It will be interesting to see the results of your AFR test.

Hopefully the engine will start on the first turn of your key.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
177 Posts
Thank for sharing, and we'll done, this is very useful and something I will revisit when I come to set mine up.
Regards Geoff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
171 Posts
Thanks for posting Jeff. This is great info. I just got my SPICA back from Wes a few weeks ago. I'm probably a couple of months away from mounting the SPICA on the engine, so your experience is pretty timely for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks guys, this was more a exercise for my own piece of mind. I do think that checking the TA on the kitchen stove is worthwhile with a good digital thermometer. Mark if I revisit the throttle bodies and injection pump timing I'll see about a video of the procedure.

Jeff
 
  • Like
Reactions: IRONBLOCK

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
Great post!

I am considering doing this for my car, I have spent too much time dealing with high idle and over rich running. It runs and I have been driving it for the 4 or 5 years I have owned it, but it always idles at 1200 rpm, except sometimes it drops to 900 ??? cant explain why, and you can smell the fuel. I have a local guy who races a GTV and really knows his stuff but even he is stumped. I feel like I am chasing my tail. I bring it to him and he fixes the issue of the day and it runs good for a few hours (3 drives over 4 weeks) then something else crops up.

Most recently sorted the distributor, one of the 3 bolts back out and caused the drive gear to shear. Of course that happened after my fuel pump quit. Thought I had it all sorted and then the pump quit again so ended up redoing the wiring as I described in another post. Now I have a good spark from a pertonix fed distributor, good voltage from new coils and good fuel pressure.....

Extremely frustrated so I figure its time to start with the basics...has anyone done this in the car?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
...I have spent too much time dealing with high idle and over rich running. It runs and I have been driving it for the 4 or 5 years I have owned it, but it always idles at 1200 rpm, except sometimes it drops to 900 ??? cant explain why, and you can smell the fuel.
HMB, I've been in the same boat for a while. I suspect our thermostatic actuators are not leaning out the mixture as the engines warm up. My car runs rich, uses a lot of fuel and refuses to start when warm about 50% of the time. I've been warned that too much fuel in the mixture can wash the oil from cylinders and cause issues so I change the oil often just in case.

My Duetto idles high, maybe 1500-1800 rpm but if the clutch is partially let out while the transmission is in gear and the brake is on, the engine will idle down to about 700 rpm. I suspect the centrifugal advance weights are not returning and retarding the timing like, they are supposed to. I suspect dirty distributor, weights with no lubrication or bad return springs.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I would certainly consider rebuilding the distributor first before spending too much time chasing a fluctuating engine idle speed. Don did a great post on rebuilding the Magneti Marelli distributor. Plan on replacing the upper and lower bearings, I also found the advance weight pins badly worn in the two that I have rebuilt.

The pins are available from Superformance in the UK from a 246 Ferrari Dino along with other Marelli small parts. I would consider reusing the original ignition trigger points or New Old Stock Magneti Marelli points over the current poor quality reproduction points that I have seen lately.

 

·
Push hard and live
Joined
·
11,119 Posts
The Pertronix trigger system should be a must-have. The amount of future labor saved, plus improved idle and spark timing stability, are significant.

Idle perfection on my Montreal required that everything be correct. The distributor was one of the elements. Eventually, it became clear why Alfa added the second idle air circuit to later cars. Achieving a stable, and reliable idle with the throttles totally closed required balancing idle timing advance and just about all of the air available from the idle air adjuster.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
HMBAlfa,

It sounds like you installed the Pertronix trigger system in your distributor already, did the advance weights in the lower part of the distributor get cleaned and serviced at that time? if not it should be done. Sticking advance weights will certainly cause the idle speed to fluctuate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
Great post!
... dealing with high idle and over rich running. It runs and I have been driving it for the 4 or 5 years I have owned it, but it always idles at 1200 rpm, except sometimes it drops to 900 ??? cant explain why, and you can smell the fuel.
I pulled the TA off my car yesterday and it needs to be rebuilt. The plunger did not extend at all from its housing at room temperature and only 7 mm at 212F. I could smell the fuel too but my idle was low when cool (maybe due to fouled plugs) but a tad high once warm. Bruce Taylor says that a faulty TA will cause a high idle.

Before you remove your TA, you want to drain at least two quarts of coolant from your radiator! I needed to flush some oil from the valley between the heads. The coolant did that nicely and helped clean up my garage floor. A bolt that managed to work its way loose from the left side of the block was lying in the valley. It doesn't appear to serve any purpose but I suspect it or the Spica was the source of the oil.

Has anyone here followed Bruce Taylor's insinuation that the average car owner can rebuild their TA?

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,027 Posts
....Has anyone here followed Bruce Taylor's insinuation that the average car owner can rebuild their TA? Mark
I did give it a try for the TA on my 69 GTV. It was successful and the repair design allows for future adjustments to be made with out having to send it out to some one else to do. I will also reapair my Montreal's TA which is currently in 2 pieces (capillary tube was completely severed in half). I posted photos and explanation of what I did in my GTV restoration thread starting on page 90 (post 1,800-1,801)...

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
Well done! You have skills and equipment that I don't have. I sent my TA to Wes today. Fortunately he had a unit ready to ship to me right away. He will repair my TA for the next person who needs it.

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,027 Posts
...I have spent too much time dealing with high idle and over rich running......Extremely frustrated so I figure its time to start with the basics...has anyone done this in the car?
Hunting idle is something I've recently solved on my Spica engined 1750 GTV. I'm thinking maybe the same solution might help with the V8 engine as well. Basically the problem was resolved by eliminating all leakages at the throttle plates. I experimented with rubber pads to block the intakes and found the engine idled smoothly at 700rpm after minor adjustments of the idle equalizers (69 engine has separate equalizer intake)....I posted a before and after video showing the differences. The final solution was to use caliper paint applied to the throttle bores where the butterflies contact the throttle surfaces.....so as to close the .0015" gaps.


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,027 Posts
..Well done! You have skills and equipment that I don't have. I sent my TA to Wes today. Fortunately he had a unit ready to ship to me right away. He will repair my TA for the next person who needs it. Mark
Thanks.....after seeing the various repairs for these on the Montreal site.....my curiosity was peaked and I just had to give it a try. The only thing needed was a small lathe....but getting it repaired by someone else saves a lot of time and effort that is for sure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
The rebuilt Thermostatic Actuator that I (very quickly!) received from Ingram Enterprises was installed this morning. Unlike Jeff, I didn't even think to test it out to determine the full piston extension in a pot of boiling water. No worries, I trust Wes & the guys know what they are doing.

The instructions that came with the TA say inside the Spica pump, where the TA goes is a screw that should be screwed in all the way then backed out two turns. The screw does not seem to want to screw in. I knew to expect resistance from a spring in compression, that prevents the screw from backing out. It seems like a collar (maybe it is the spring) turns about 1/8 of a turn and prevents the screw from turning in. I'd really like to avoid 'screwing up' the Spica -how hard should it be to turn this screw?

Also, can the engine be started up -without the air filter cover in place, so that the engine can be warmed up to operating temperature, for the "reference gap -C" to be checked on the fuel pump?

One other thing, the 'loose' 10mm bolt (head size) that was found in the engine 'valley' does not fit the larger threaded bolt hole on the left side of the block. I have no idea where the bolt came from or if there should be a bolt (14 mm or so) in the threaded hole in the block.

Maybe I should just turn the key, if it starts, warm the engine and check gap C...

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,027 Posts
.... I'd really like to avoid 'screwing up' the Spica -how hard should it be to turn this screw?Mark
Will the screw come out at least without excess resistance? If so...you could then go in with a small awl to clean out any dirt...or rust (I hope not rust though) that may be sitting in the bottom of the hole ....making sure nothing falls into the rear case of the pump of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
166 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I would certainly take a measurement of the screw height first for a base line. I would also shine a light down the hole and look for and debris or corrosion. You could always drip some light weight oil down the hole to help loosen anything up.

It might be that someone as already screwed it in and bottomed it out.

I would not hesitate to call Wes for his feedback also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
On the picture you can see the inside of the regulator part of the Spica on the TA and CSS side. It's easy to open this cover, 4 bolts, and give a good clean inside.
You can test if the TA link is blocked or not .
In the Spica manual it's said that some corrosion can be noticed on the CSS shaft.
Bernard
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,287 Posts
When I tried to turn screw 'B' in the diagram Barnard's provided above -that the TA plunger acts on, it would not screw in or out but the screw and spring(?) could just slightly be rotated either way. The screw and the hole that it is located in both seem to be well lubricated (oily), clean and rust free. I suspect that the retention spring that keeps the screw in compression is preventing it from turning and rather then use more force, it seems like a good idea to warm up the engine to see what gap 'C' actually measures. If screw 'B' needs to be screwed in or out, perhaps a larger screw driver would persuade it to turn.

Will the engine start and run with the air filter housing and vacuum controls disconnected? Otherwise, the air filter hosing, idle air equalizer, etc. would all need to be installed and removed again to check gap 'C' once the engine reaches operating temperature.

Mark
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top