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81gtv6 said:
Alright anthony, i will bite.

I may be a V6er, but explain to me how a hot 2 liter could beat a 24V? And what would it cost to make the 2L smoke a V6? C'mon i need facts, numbers here!
Start off by buying a '67-'74 GTV that needs work for about $1500. Strip it and get it painted.

Next, Call up any of the Alfa Romeo parts suppliers and get a springs, Koni shocks, sway bars, adjustable control arms, eurothane bushings.

When it comes to the motor, you dont need a whole lot cuz horsepower does not win races! Throw in some 10:1 pistons, get the head port/polished by a machine shop that knows Alfa heads, throw in some 11mm cams, oversized valves, Weber carbs (DCOE 40's will be fine), and a nice set of headers. What you'll have here is a good streetable motor that runs on pump gas and puts out about 120-140 RWHP.

For the gearbox, throw in a set of lightened gears or if you have some extra cash, call Steve Schwitter and get one of his synco-boxes (about $2K for the gear set).

Rear end, a basic 4.56 lsd will work, don't even have to re-shim it if it's working fine. Later on down the road if you want, throw in a Panhard Rod, but you don't need that yet.

Interior, throw in an Autopower roll bar or if you want more protection, Autopower and Sparco both make nice 6 point cages. A couple of racing seats, steering weel, a few little other odds & ends...you're done with the interior.

Wheels & Tires: 14x7 Panasports are the way to go these days. Tire availability is great for 14". You can pick up Kumho's for as little as $95 each or once you get super serious Hoosiers will run you about $180 each.

At this point you will have a GTV that is roughly weighing in a little under 2000 lbs. and there is a whole lot more you can do. Don't forget you can still throw on: lexan windows, fiberglass doors - hood - trunk - lower front spoiler - fender flairs. At this point you're venturing down into the 1800 lbs. area.

Reliability...the 105 series GTV's are tanks! I can't begin to tell you how much abuse these things take and they don't stop to take a breath, they just keep running.

Another thing you may want to think about is the value of the car should you have to sell it for and emergency or whatever reason. A nice prepared street/track GTV will run about $15K-$20K with a full race car going for $20K-$30K. I don't think a GTV6/Milano will ever reach those prices unless it's a Calloway or some factory racer with race history. So, in the end, you won't be loosing as much. Also, a you street/track GTV is gonna cost you about $15K-$20K to completely build once you are done if you have shops do the work and cheaper if you do it yourself so, you'll basically breaking even on the car.

With a good set up, not a whole lot of horsepower, and a good driver a 105 series GTV should be able to mess up any V6.

Wanna hear what a full race GTV can do?

Think about it.....
 

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Hot topic this one... :)

Streetable? With a very modified engine? The "streetable" option is already long gone IMHO.

I might make myself the leader of the "Most Hated member of the BB" now but it needs to be said...

What is the purpose of this car? To go round the track as fast as possible or is it down to "Bling" and showing off?
IMO the Godzilla engine in an uprated streetcar might be fun for understeering around the corners at half the speed of the other cars and then haul down the straights like a dragracer but to be able to become a fast driver the other road is a much better option.
A massaged 2.0 with ~170Hp is VERY reliable and doesn't need the attention of a highly modified machine. Yes, it's snail-like slow in a dragrace with the 3.7 but on the other hand it will deliver at all times.

Fine, the engine choise has been done, the 3.7 is going in, big brakes too? Why?
What kind of tires will you use? super grippy rubber needs big brakes on a heavy car but I imagine you will lighten the crap out of the car (which makes it pretty useless on the street BTW). Big brakes needs big wheels which are heavy and needs expensive rubber (which is heavy because of the beefier build), all this weight ar the wrong place is very bad.
Separate Master Cylinders and a balance bar is a must, no it's not an option, it's a must in this situation. You do not want to cut any corners in this department.

This engine really force you to make the rest of the car into a 100% racer to match it and that means coil overs at the front and scrap the bars.

All this adds up to one thing...
Huge amounts of time, or obscene amounts of cash if you want someone to make it for you but you mentioned some agreement with the wife so I guess not, time it is.
Assuming you actually have the knowledge to build a car like this (not many do, I certainly don't) you will probably need two years of hard work and calculations before it's ready (I mean, why not make the front suspensionactually work whan you're at it and so on...)
This means that your friends will have two years of driving practice (remember that you actually have to be a frigging master driver to take advantage of all that extra power and grip) before you even see the pitlane....
And this is if you actually finish the car, it takes a very strong head to work two years without any driving, belive me.

Allright, I'll go and hide now. I'll be back at the start of the season, tuned and ready.

BTW. 105? You gotta be kidding, they are not quick.
 

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BigSwede said:
Hot topic this one... :)
BTW. 105? You gotta be kidding, they are not quick.
Alright, I will through my 2 cents into the pot. I guarentee that my 2.0 L alfa will beat ANY other alfa at ANY Road Course. Alright, i will grant you a 3.7 will beat my at a quater-mile, however, I haven't seen any V6 that has turned my kind of lap-times. I will go one step further and say that I haven't seen very many porsches turn my kind of lap times. Any car that is able to turn a 1:33 FLAT at Willow springs, 1:44 at Laguna seca, and a 1:55 at Buttonwillow DESERVES RESPECT. The simple fact is that I am 600 lbs lighter than those V6's. I can put big 225 tires underneath it. Now this is a full race car, that cost me $26,500. However, every alfa club event i have been to with this car, i have won, and by more than 30 seconds at each track.

Richard
 

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RtbRacer said:
Any car that is able to turn a 1:33 FLAT at Willow springs, 1:44 at Laguna seca, and a 1:55 at Buttonwillow DESERVES RESPECT.
Richard,

Point taken. It all comes down to lap times. What did you run at Road America this summer? That is the one US track where I can see a fast V6 besting a well prepped GTV.

Joe
 

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JoeCab said:
Richard,

Point taken. It all comes down to lap times. What did you run at Road America this summer? That is the one US track where I can see a fast V6 besting a well prepped GTV.

Joe

A Milano or GTV6 would be toast in the carousel. Then there is turns 1,5,11,12,13,14 where the GTV would be much faster.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Different folks, different strokes...

I don't mind turbos, love my callaway - neat engineering within their constraints at the time.

Reliability and reasonable driveability were important to me in choosing the engine, but that is pointless to discuss in my case since IT IS A DONE DEAL, and I LOVE it. I love the GTV6/milano and the V6 engines, so those were givens, non-negotiable.

This is _NO_ bling-bling or show-off car (don't care much for such) - this is a longer term project in building a fast and fun car to enjoy (on the track when times come), and otherwise on some of the nice roads around here.

Well, two things contribute to fast lap times, car and driver. You can't just look at one - I'm unfamiliar with the circumstances, but you could be comparing apples to oranges.

Jes
 

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JoeCab said:
Richard,

Point taken. It all comes down to lap times. What did you run at Road America this summer? That is the one US track where I can see a fast V6 besting a well prepped GTV.

Joe
I ran a 2:38 earlier in the summer at the BRIC invitational earlier in the summer in july.
Richard
 

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Richard,

That's fast, very similar to what Mike Cudahy and Filippo Reina run in their SCCA GT5 Alfettas, IIRC! Nice job!

My friend ran ~2.42s a couple of years in a row during the Chicago AROC time trials in the late 1990s in his Callaway - basically stock but on sticky rubber and with a locked rear end. This is a car that had zero weight taken out of it and was driven to the track.

Joe
 

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By the looks of this thread (don't take offense if this isnt true) turbolarespider is the only one with experience running a turbo motor that was once N/A...

That said, my dad and uncle (BMW and Porsche crazed people :cool: ) have been in the "shadetree" modifying game for a looong time (say, since 1966 when my uncle got his first Porsche and started building it to go faster). In the early 1980's my dad worked building turbo rally cars as well as top fuel cars. They both have experience in not only building high performance cars, but doing it on a budget. Heck, one of our projects soon may involve a turbocharged Euro (M30) 3.5 liter I6!!!

How much did the 3.7 24V cost? All parts and labor (stuff other people had to do for you, like the heads for example) included, I bet it would be cheaper to build a 2.8 twin turbo and make more power. Of course though, it has to be made clear that we (my crack team of myself, dad and nutty uncle) would be doing all of the fabrication ourselves, leaving only big things to "pros".

Im not trying to be a jerk though, don't think that! I just felt the need to explain why I believe that it could be done (a 400whp V6)... I totally envy your 3.7 and I wish I had the cash to do one myself!! But the lack of cash is exactly where the idea of turbocharging spawned from ;)




I am young, but don't doubt my knowledge or understanding, please. My brain is the smartest one I have ever used!! :p
 

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AR4me: Ok, no bling, got it. :)
I'm still confused in this streetcar - trackcar though but thats the usual US vs. me in opinion I guess. :D
I wish you a pleasant voyage in building the car and DO start a project thread with loads of pics. :)

RtbRacer: We seem to have the same experience with the four-cyl, I bet the others will eventually come around... ;)
But a $26,500 GTV (I'm guessing 105 here, did you even get the 116 GTV(4) in the US?) is really a VERY serious chassis with a 105 body on it, isn't it? :) Pretty extensive modification work done to that one I presume...
 

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you are quite right, the car is very serious with a full 10-point cage and 190hp, with dual-way adjustable shocks, heavy springs, 225 sticky hoosier tires, dog ring tranny, race clutch, wieghing 2050 after a race with me in it. I am about 240 fully clothed, so its a light car. The other thing is the car was fully dipped and stripped for wieght purposes which lightened it emmensly.

You are right about it being a 105 serious, as for numbers the original GTV's were 105 series, as were the last European 2000 GTV models. However the US model 2000 GTV versions were 115 series, as were some of the European spec Junior versions.

Richard
 

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Well allll...righty then!

Now that we have completely TRASHED AR4me's thread, let me join Mats in the "voted off the island" stands with my final comments....

I mean, we have pissed on this guy's battery, (not to mention, called BOTH of our collective choices STUPID) and we haven't really answered his original questions from the start of his thread... When did Jes ever say that he also owns a "GTV" or that installing his engine into a "105" was what he wanted to discuss, (or that it was even an option for him?)

Why do we keep talking about GTV 4s...? I believe that there is a GTV group on the BB, no? I can provide a link....

More to the point;

1) BigSwede, Rome was NOT built in a day - GTA 330mm brakes and coil-overs and the rest will follow. Surely you are NOT suggesting that with the same suspension and brake-setups as say YOUR car - the mere addition of the 3.7 is somehow going to transform this thing into a useless Top Fueler now, with dismal cornering, scraping the door-handles around the track - are ya?

I will be driving my car by spring and YOU of all people should know that a project such as this, is a labour of love and it is NEVER done!

2) Italcarguy, it IS a matter of personal taste - that GTV is not even on the map in the hands of the EXACT SAME DRIVER. You seem to forget that we do have GTV s in our club up here too, among other things (and they are NOT the fastest cars in the club)

3) Wickidchickin, Champ Cars, in this thread? Are you for real? Whatever - Go to your room!

4) RtbRacer, see you in Seattle next summer.... (…and I will have change left over from the 26K that you have invested….) Oh yeah, we have some sweet ol' GTA s as well and they are ALSO not the fastest around the track.

And please already - with the "big wheels are heavier" arguments - Weigh the **** things WITH tires next time (lighter tires - as the rim's height increases) so it is a trade-off and yes, steel-thread radial rubber weighs more than alloy rims....

Also, less rotational inertia at the outside of the wheel.

The guys who consistently set the best times in our club are as follows:
Z06, Z06, M3, NSX, Supra (HUGE) Turbo, GTV6, GTV6, RSAmerica, 3.6 911, WRX, WRX, Viper GTS etc etc… (BTW, all of these guys have dumped their engines in favour of highly efficient 4-cylinder Alfa Romeo engines…)

I mean, how often do we REALLY get to drive our cars at 10-tenths any way? The guy wants something that he can have some fun in on the street, keep it cool with the little lady, do some occasional track days, BE COMPETITIVE and still drive something special and unusual!

(I hate Vettes anyway), so let's just replace that utterly useless Z06 engine with a killer-smoke'em all, 4-banger turbo-blown super-galactic flux-capacitor then... All of that power in a 2500 pound car with neutral handling and huge brakes doesn't stand a chance.


We’ll blame my weak-suck lap-times on my 265 pound lard-arse….

You go Jess,

What have you decided? Milano or GTV66666666666666666666?
 

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Discussion Starter #34
Based on the collective comments (from when this thread was still somewhat relevant) I have decided on the Milano. Either on my own verde, or an inexpensive milano and then part with the verde - won't fly with another car in the house hold. Oh, that's the agreement with the wife: the total number of cars cannot increase.

Dropping the 3.7 in, will do little other change to the car than add power on tap. Upgrades will follow to improve
1. braking.
2. handling.
3. weight.
etc.

Bigswede, I'm DK (not US, although living and enjoying it here). Oh, and for updates look for the "Godzilla Milano" thread ;)

BTW, I don't need to go the fastest of all - I just want to have some fun, enjoy myself, and go the fastest I can with what I like and have at my hands.

Jes
 

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Cool! Milano rocks!

BTW, if you are interested in doing a rollcage, I am interested in fitting either a cage or a rear only cage in my car. Maybe we can find a shop to do all our cars?

Since your engine will come in about 1 month time, will be ready for Willow Springs TT in Jan?
 

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Ok ok, this is actually a good thread now... we are all settled down now.

One thing though, was I misunderstood?? I did say build didn't I? When I mentioned Porsche I said you could build a 400whp motor, didn't I? I just wanted to clear that up... I wasn't making outrageous claims of huge stock hp numbers... Good times.

I want a roll cage too, sign me up.
 

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Ok, Jes, souds good. But I still think it's a Trackable streetcar and not a streetable trackcar... ;)
Of course you need a rollcage, can you even compete without one??

---
"BigSwede, Rome was NOT built in a day - GTA 330mm brakes and coil-overs and the rest will follow. Surely you are NOT suggesting that with the same suspension and brake-setups - the mere addition of the 3.7 is somehow going to transform this thing into a useless Top Fueler now, with dismal cornering, scraping the door-handles around the track - are ya?"

It's not transformed... With the original chassis the car is pretty useless at the track and rolls like a steamboat on the Atlantic Ocean. Are you in denial by any chance? ;)
If the engine goes in the chassis need an upgrade at the same time and so does the brakes, just plopping in a monster engine will make the car pretty scary I believe. I used to have just under 200Hp in my otherwise standard 75 T, that was not even fun on the freeway. :eek:

"And please already - with the "big wheels are heavier" arguments - Weigh the **** things WITH tires next time (lighter tires - as the rim's height increases) so it is a trade-off and yes, steel-thread radial rubber weighs more than alloy rims....

Also, less rotational inertia at the outside of the wheel."

If you're suggesting that a 205/40-17 is lighter then a 205/50-15 I think you need to take a ride to the local tireshop and do some carrying... Also, a 17" rim has s*itloads more rotationel inertia then a 15" with the same weight.
My 15" race wheels (rim+tire) weighs 14.5Kg each, my 16" street wheels weighs around 21Kg each. and the weight is much further out on the 16", you do the math.
Both are OZ rims BTW.
 

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Hey Mats...

Read again - what I mean is, you don't suggest that "with the same" (say as YOUR car for example...) suspension and brake setup - this thing now turns into a pig all of a sudden just because I dropped a 3.7 in there.....

Also, we are not talking about the kid's "water injected" 500 horsepower flux-capacitor here. We are talking about something that the chassis can handle, given the suspension and brake upgrades available in the market-place today. Chip has done 250 horses or so. Jes and I are doing 300-325 or so.
 

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Mats,

Toyo Proxes RA-1 specs from their website:
205/40/17 = 18.8 lbs
205/50/15 = 20.0 lbs

I think with a 3.7 you shouldn't aim for anything less than 235. Don't worry about the weight, you'll have so much power that you will benefit more from the increased width than lose from the increased weight.
 

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Thank You!

Finally! Someone who "gets" it..... (I know that there are others among the silent masses.) Zamani, if you were a girl, I'd kiss you! :eek:

Mats; get my point about the trade-off on tire weight when increasing the rim size? When the wheel is spinning, there is actually very little inertia concentrated at the center of the hub, versus at the outer-limits of the tire…

The rotational weight of that smaller (but heavier) tire (same brand, same model and basically the same circumference), is all concentrated at the outer-limits of the wheel. In the case of the 15" it is higher than for the 17" tire made to fit the same car...) :)
 
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