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Discussion Starter #1
Not sure which section to post this in, but since the most activity related to making these things go fast has been in the Milano/75 section I'll post here...

For a while I have been contemplating a project of putting together a track car, yet streetable. I'm considering either a Milano or GTV6, but am undecided at this point, but am leaning towards a GTV6. What do you guys think (from a pure potential-performance point of view)? Any thoughts, a toss-up?

My thinking is that the body of the GTV6 is probably more rigid, but on the other hand you probably have more "readily" available light weight body panles (fiberglass, carbon fiber, ) for the Milano.

The mods will take place in steps, and I hope to do things right the first time. The heart is first. I was initially considering putting in a stock 24v V6, but since there is already quite a bit involved with that, I decided to "do it right" the first time - it will be powered by an engine identical to John's (aka junglejustice) 3.7 beauty by Dawie de Villiers :) Daily comfort is not an issue since it is primarily for track and on the street for a fun run and a blast. Also, I plan to upgrade the car as my driving skills improve, my bank account stays healthy, and my wife doesn't put her foot in the door... But, I may do some of the things up front if it makes sense.

Long-term plans include (in no particular order):
1. Stripping interior.
2. Coil-over suspension from rsracing + bushings etc.
3. Upgrade brakes - tarox front, sz vented rears (inboard).
4. Milano platinum LSD rear with lightened gears.
5. Light weight 17" rims, possibly Team Dynamics Pro Race I.
6. Racing seat.
7. Light weight body panels as available.
8. Cage, but that's weight ;)

Any other things to consider? Any thoughts on prioritizing the items on the list?

If I go with a GTV6, I'm thinking of either Alfa Rosso or Le Mans Blue (leaning towards Le Mans Blue) - can anyone think of any cars officially entered into racing by Alfa Romeo in Le Mans Blue, or paint schemes involving Le Mans Blue?

Jes
 

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G'Day Jes,

Ok, I dont race but I'm willing to start the debate.

GTV or Milano:

Flip a coin, GTV is probably a better choice of chassis but you will want so many parts off a Milano that you will need both :D

Performance mods order:

Brakes
Wheels/Tires
Suspension
Engine
 

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Define Streetable... ;)

The 75 vs. GTV body has been debated thoroughly at the coffetable in our garage and we have come to the conclution that the 75 is probably the better choise performance-wise. Easier to strip panels for weight, more modern unibody (i.e. stiffer and lighter) a tad longer wheelbase (easier drive), better aerodynamics (yes, way better!) and so on.
Torsion bars goes in the bin, go for full coil-over directly, saves huge amounts of weight and is actually possible to set up. You need a rollcage and seamweld the front structure for the coil-overs but you would do that anyway on a serious track car, 2.25" springs on the coilovers up front and the same in the rear, there are infinite (almost anyway) amounts of springs so you will be able to fine tune the spring rate quite easily and corner weight/ride height is easy to adjust.

Brakes are very important but it seems like you have your own stuff over there so It's difficult to give advice. I have 75 v6 brakes on my racer (900Kg GTV) and they are enough for me right now (evil pads, mega expensive fluid and steel braided teflon hoses) but then again I have a 2liter Nord engine with 150Hp on a good day. Have the same setup on my 75 T (1150Kg and more power) and they are on the limit with street tires, would probably overheat with race rubber.

My list:
-Brakes
-Brakes
-Yes, Brakes... ;)
-Chassis (ditch the stupid torsion bar setup as above)
-Tires
-Driving and setting up
-Maybe engine, later, NOT the first year anyway, and NOT a super V6. Go for a hot fourbanger.
 

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Whats wrong, callaway not hot enough for ya? :p
Thats ok, we can trade if you like!!!! :D


My personal bias is with the GTV6 body, 164 24V engine, and almost everything else Milano. IMHO the GTV6 body is a tad stiffer, looks alot meaner, and I would say can be made lighter. I have a totally stripped GTV6, nothing but glass and suspension on her, MIGHTY light. The engine of choice has to be the 3.0 24V, upped to a 3.7 and that will be a meannnnn mutha!! :eek: Of course you neeeeed the Milano platinum LSD. Hopefully my GTV6 will have the the 24V and PlatLSD someday.


I would like to see a post in "Anything about Alfa Romeos and AlfaBB.com" about "Hottest alfa", what to take off of what alfa to make the best racer.


"BigSwedeGo:" for a hot fourbanger." SAY WHAT?! Why no 24V?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thank for the comments. Please, keep'em coming.

The engine is a done deal - it will be the 3.7 liter "junglejustice" engine.

Bigswede, hmm, that definitely speaks in favor of the milano/75. That may also make some sense in terms of keeping my Alfa assortment balanced as I will have to part with my verde in order for the wife to accept it - that was the deal I struck with her to do this.

81gtv6, since the callaway is 1 of 35 (37 incl prototypes) I'm maintaining it completely original - don't want to "molest" it. This new project is focussing on performance for track use.

So, you all seem to suggest doing brakes before suspension? Any opinions on which brakes to put in.

Jes
 

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Darn, so now we are gonna have two 3.7s....24Vs..... modified ones too??? Looks like I need to get a supercharger real soon!


Anyway, I think a 75 with an EVO kit would be better.
 

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2.8 Twin Turbo 12v. 8.0 to 1 compression, forged internals, custom intake plenum, custom exhaust manifolds, stand alone engine managment (can't use L-jet with upwards of 17psi... let alone 8 or 9!) That should get you somewhere in the area of say, 400whp or better... and it might even run on premium pump gas.

How do I justify this? Well, in addition to my own research on cars like the Porsche 951 and the BMW 745i (the M106 powered car, not the new one), my friend at work has just finished a 2.0 Honda CRX that is making 480whp at 25psi... let's just go ahead and assume that the extra 0.8 liters and two extra cylinders can at least match that.

Building this motor will probably cost as much as building junglejustice's 3.7 24v though... I guess it's all up to whether or not you like forced induction!

Um... and to attempt to salvage any chance I had of staying on topic, definitely do the brakes and suspension before the motor... Nothing is worse than stomping on the brakes only to find that they don't stop the car fast enough! Tarox (from performatek.com) offers lots of options.
 

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Brakes are big, VERY big. Go with a 2.5L Milano or GTV6 and drop Greg Gordon's supercharger into it and do some suspension work.
 

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GTV6 has a lot of glass in that hatch back...converting to plexiglass would net some big gains there. The milano is known bo be not so stiff in the engine bay and starts off weighing 150 lbs more than the GTV6. I'd go with a GTV6 if your willing to spend more time swapping milano parts in, other wise a platinum or verde would be a better start IMO.


And the debate between NA and turbo..just imagine cornering at the limit around a medium left sweeper. Then the "400" turbo'd horses kick in putting the car into an uncontrollable slide. But I don't know how good of a driver you are, maybe you are the next Fangio and know how to control a beast like that. Your call!


O yeah, supercharging sounds pretty good too!
-grant
 

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The engine is a done deal though.

So the real issue to focus on is, what other mods and on which chassis it should go on.
What brake setup?
What suspension setup?
etc...
 

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Brakes;

Jes,

I thought that I was "done" with my suspension decision, (to go with RSRacing), but I have "an open issue" with Ron for the moment and I am reluctant to go there until it is resolved... Ask me again.

From a viability standpoint, his stuff is good; however, his coil-overs are actually "coilover-helpers" where you retain the stock (heavy) torsion bars. Like Mats said, there are pure coil-over setups available and I am going to explore those first, when I get back from SA. I was also looking into what exactly the IMSA Corse cars ran with...

Brakes - I am coming back with a 310mm or a 330mm GTA kit for my Milano (I already have the brackets) and I can get more for those of you who want them for the GTV6/Milano... Almost US $1,800 or so for the whole kit, but MAN! Can you imagine...? Today's GTA brakes...

We have a kit for the rear - REAL nice, (but its BMW stuff) and I can already hear the purists now...

As far as tortional rigidity; I am welding the rear doors shut, putting in a full cage, welding the front-end, strengthening/welding the coilover-mount points and doing an X-brace underneath...

There is more glass to remove from the Milano (more weight savings) and the Milano is a later design, stiffer, longer wheel-based chassis than the GTV6 - as mentioned before.

Suspension and brakes though are paramount to the success of the engine! We've got the right stuff coming!

....what "super 4-banger"... honda, whatever turbo 200 horse killer head-gascet eater...? :eek: Not today.... :D
 

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Wow, JJ, you're gonna have the fastest and most trick Milano in the US. You need those brakes I guess as your car is going to go like mad! Shoot, even with a supercharger on my built SOHC motor I may hit 260 bhp (low boost since my comp is too high already).

It would be cool if, for an event in 2005, you can participate in one of the AROSC races.

I can see it now, 2 Milano 3.7L 24V monster, 2 Milano 3.0L 24V, and a supercharged (money permitting) Milano 3.0 12V all duking it out at Laguna Seca!!!

That would be the race to watch!!!!

BTW, an Autronic SM2 with harness,sensors,ignitors is up for sale. US$1200. If interested email me offline.
 

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Alright anthony, i will bite.

I may be a V6er, but explain to me how a hot 2 liter could beat a 24V? And what would it cost to make the 2L smoke a V6? C'mon i need facts, numbers here!
 

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Counter Point...

Sorry Nizam, you know that I like you personally and while I respect your knowledge of all things Alfa GREATLY, (as well as that of Italcarguy), I have to do this...

1)Dollar for dollar - you're going to spend MORE $$$ to give that stock 120-140-150 hp 4-banger 325 horses, than it'll cost to reach 325 with the 24 V.

2)Since you are CERTAINLY talking turbo-charging, dollar for dollar, you're going to spend A GREAT DEAL more keeping that strung little turbo-4 running - Not to mention replacement costs when it grenades... Comparatively speaking, 325 is a jog for 3.7 Litres.

3) With the Turbo, how much weight are you REALLY saving over the 24 Valve and does that make up for the lost torque? Even without the turbo, how much lighter is that 4...? Matts..? Weights?

I am all for a screaming T-Spark four (I will own one in a step-nose GTV some day...), but when you look at the cost of 3-400 horse Alfa Corse motors and the cost of complete rebuilds between races, I'm ahead with the comparative reliability of the V6 right out of the gate, so to speak.

Dawie's engines are proven solid and they are not 4 cylinders... A reliable, street-able T-Spark may yield what? 200 horses?

Just my NSHO....

And no, a Twin-Turbo 2.8 (based on the 2.5 single-cam) is not going to get you "400 horses or more at the wheels" wikidchikin... (not when Callaway's best efforts yielded 230 or so at the crank.)
 

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They were clearly Callaway's best efforts... seriously, they didn't have forged internals, larger valves, different fuel or ignition management, or lots of other things that a built motor would (should) have... not only that, they ran like 7psi? 6psi? Somewhere in that range. Look at Porsche's 2 valve per cylinder 2.5 I4... you can build a streetable 400whp Porsche motor with forged internals and whatnot running 15-17psi on pump gas, so why would it be impossible with a 2 valve per cylinder V6 of the same or larger displacement? Add intercooling, a good intake and exhaust design, and water injection and I would be willing to bet both my testicles that it could put down 400whp.

That guy at cmos racing built one that made more power than that... granted it was a 3.0, but a 2.8 would be nearly identical since larger displacement has less effect on the ultimate power output of a turbocharged motor...

Note: don't hold me to the testicle thing... I dont have the money to build the motor yet!

Edit note: I'm gonna get a Porsche 951... then the real fun will start :D .90g on the skid pad. Don't kill me though! I'm keeping my Milano and it will recieve love too!
 

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Missed Point...

- never said "it couldn't be done"....

We're kind-off bleeding all over someone else's thread here that has the "power-plant" portion of his decision behind him. I do believe that what he was looking for, are opinions on the “GTV6 versus Milano” portion of his decision as it relates to suspension performance, brakes, tortional rigidity, weight, practicality (remember that there is also a Mrs. Jes as well as a 2 year-oldJes ) etc etc...

Since you and I kind off got away from his original questions here, I'll respond only to comment that from an engine performance standpoint, what the rest of us have been discussing is the "hot 4-banger versus hot V6 call" as well as the "completed within the cost parameters of what we're doing with the 3.7 Litre" perspective. I DO recall that street-able was part of the equation, as was affordability without re-inventing the wheel, reliability and track effectiveness.

Anything can be done; its just money. Practically speaking, forging the internals gives you strength and durability and with it - affords the engine the ability to absorb the additional stress of higher output and RPMs. It does not "increase power" per se. The larger valves and porting on the 24 Valve (where breathing is arguably even more of a factor and we should see HUGE gains) contributes "merely" 50-60 horses on the 3.7 Litre...

For the moment I have shelved my idea for 6 individual throttle-bodies because the gains are "only" 15 horses over the modified Milano intake. I have also shelved my $4,600.00 engine management system dreams because the gains are zero at the base, with what we are doing. Since you brought up Porsches - the benchmark is 425-450 horses (uh, crank-horses) from 3.6 to 3.8 Litres, 6 cylinders and two turbos. I don't see the 400 plus wheel output from a 25 year-old 2.5 12-Valve design (even with 2.8 Litres and hot cams...)

Ahhh.... Turbos "running upwards of 17 PSI..." Oh, there it is. How happy do you think "Mrs. AR4me" is going to be when that thing grenades and runs Jes about as much to maintain as it did to build? And how do you think said Mrs. AR4me is going to feel about the drive-ability of this 500 crank-horse 2.8 TT if indeed such a thing can be built for less than the National Defense budget? ;)

Ah! :rolleyes: The hubris of youth.... Keep aiming high though; it truly is a wonderful trait.
 

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A comment about turbos... one can run 14psi all day with 8:1 compression. :)

Our pieced together turbo on a Spider has run for 3 HARD years without any issues- and here's the big list of high tech components that we used:




That's it. Stock rods, carry over used bearings, stock pistons that we machined from 9:1 to 8:1. The only tricks we did to the engine was drill the #2 and #4 main bearings, put a wire ring in the liners, and epoxy the liners into the block. That is IT. The car has seen 8000rpm at 14psi of boost- I know cause I was driving (it was faster not to shift, and, frankly, I didn't car if it did blow up- it was the last challenge we ran).

With the cams we had, and the turbo, that probably translated into something like 220-240hp, but I have no idea for real.

Does that mean you can get 400hp out of a twin turbo 2.8? Don't know. And I would agree that a 350hp 3.7l V6 would be far easier to drive. One of my ideas for a future GRM challenge car was a lightly blown V6 instead of the I4....

Just trying to mix things up.... :D

Eric
 
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