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No disrespect here either. I got my 1966 Duetto in 1984 and not only was it the "best I could find", it was about the only one that I could find at the time. It is a nice driver but it is not all original nor does it look like new despite my best efforts. Today I know of several really nice examples but originality is hard to beat. It would be interesting to see what your 1750 would bring at an RM or Gooding auction. Good luck!
 

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Let me start by saying - best of luck with the "sale". I will be in Monterey from the 13-20th and hope I can see it.

At the risk of being unpopular, however, let me say that an asking price of 2-3x the going rate for a pristine example is very optimistic.

I have a an '86 Testarossa being auctioned in Monterey with only 5,000 miles. Last year at Concorso Italiano it **** near won "Best in Show" in addition to "Best Ferrari", a "Platinum" and the "Preservation Award". Typical "single mirror" Testarossas go for $50-70k in primo condition. It would absolute folly for me to expect to get $150+k for my Testarossa.

I'm curious though, your 1750 Spider does not have (at least you have not specified it) the caliber of awards and has considerably more mileage than my Testarossa; so how do you reckon that your Spider (c'mon, stop calling it a "Duetto") will pull $60k?

I know I'm doing an "apples to coconuts" comparison here of 2 cars from 2 different marques that are 20 years apart in age but I'm genuinely curious.

Rick
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
My opinion

Rick,

You've asked several fair questions and here are my answers.

First of all I love Ferraris. The newer Testarossas are wonderful cars, and I dreamed of owning one when they were first released. I couldn't afford it though, so I stayed with my little Alfa Romeo collection.

Ferrari made many ( hundreds? ) of Testarossas and they sold very well.
They were very expensive cars when new, and most of the owners took great care of them and drove them very little so there are many ( hundreds ? ) of beautiful, totally original, low mileage LATE model Testarossas available.

Ferrari is a thriving exotic car manufacturer and wonderful new models are released and sold in large numbers, almost every year. Those factors all keep late model Ferraris from achieving the price escalation that one sees in less commonly preserved older cars.

That's all I can say about your car.


Now, concerning my car :

I titled my post as "The Finest Original 1750 Roundtail Spider in the World" for two reasons.

1. I believe it is "The Finest Original 1750 Roundtail Spider in the World"

2. I knew it would drawn alot of attention.

By the way, I try to always use quotation marks when I refer to the car as a "Duetto" ( sorry, my bad ). It does have all of the original characteristics that resulted in the name "Duetto" originally being selected for the model, except that it has fuel injection in place of two carb.s

The car has been in Alfa Owners Club Concourse events twice and placed 2nd both times when the First Place cars it competed with were totally restored cars. The first time it happened the winning car had a totally mirror polished engine, HUGE Mag Wheels, and believe it or not, SHAG CARPETING ! That was in the early 1980s in Cincinnati. What more can I say about that ? More recently in 2008, the 1st Place car was a beautiful car, but, totally restored.

On June 27th of 2010, the car was entered in the “Survivor Collector Car Show and Contest” at Pheasant Run Country Club, in St Charles, Illinois. It won the highest award, the “ZENITH” rating for total originality and condition.
The emcee or host of the show was Keith Martin, publisher of “Sports Car Market Magazine”, who is very knowledgeable about Post-War ALFAs as you probably know.
At the awards ceremony, Keith said the car was the finest original Roundtail he’d ever seen.

Last year, August, 2011, the car was exhibited at the Concorso Italiano in their "CENTERPIECE DISPLAY" area for original un-restored cars and recent "Barnfinds" and the car received much praise as mentioned in other posts herein.

Concerning price, REALLY PRISTINE examples that have been CORRECTLY RESTORED actually sell for more than most people think. $35K to $40K in private transactions is a more realistic range.
One nice but not perfect totally restored Roundtail sold at auction about five years back for somewhere around $45,000. I think it was either a Gooding auction or an RM auction out West, but I'm not sure.

That's all I can give as answers to your "apples to coconuts" comparison questions, and hope I've clarified my position.

Anyone can have a restored car, but "They Are Only Original Once".

I've never seen a better ORIGINAL example of this model, or for that matter, one that was even close, and I've been looking for them carefully for 40+ years.

See you in Carmel,

JWHALFA
 

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Be thankful for your ego, that it hasn't found BaT....on the flip side.. it would be a good reality check. I understand your reluctance to sell it at auction because the auction houses are very picky about reserves on such low prices. RM might have given you one below 100,000 but too low for your likeing. Goodings, no way below 100,000.

Personally, I think Rick has made some valid points and the first Series will always carry the day against the Spica 1750 because it (1600/webers) usually is more desirable from a collection standpoint and the big spender is going to go that way.. Now find one of those true Duettos in this condition and maybe a high number can be had.

Lastly you said the restored cars are cheaper. Since these cars are pretty straight forward restoration candidates and relatively easy to "renew" without using inferior facsimile repop parts.. there is a lot to say about saving $25000 against youir number to buy a class winner that is legit without shag carpet. Like I said earlier, a bag is where it should have been many miles ago. It loses it's "time capsule" air about it a liitle bit more, everytime you twist the key and roll that odometer.
 

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JWHALFA -

Thanks for the read-out on the awards for your car - I think the detail on the provenance of the car helps your cause.

An all original car like yours really needs to be shown at point-judged events to come out on top. The "shine and show" events will always be dominated by the guy with the fattest wallet or in this case the biggest mag wheels. lol.

Concorso Italiano is one such event where originality is rewarded. Why didn't you have it judged instead of displayed? My guess is you would have been rolling across the lawn with me for Best in Show honors.

Regarding auctions...yeah, Goodings won't let you set a reserve on a car it believes won't pull more than $150k. I'm not sure what RM's policy is but Russo & Steele (where I'm auctioning my car) would let you set a fair reserve. I was happy with where mine ended up. Here is the listing:
Russo and Steele - Collector Automobile Auctions

Lastly, how do you pronounce "JWHALFA" - I need to know how to properly address you when I meet you in Carmel. :)

Rick
 

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..... I would only understand and perhaps fill up my gaps: weren't these cars painted with nitro?
Read it as: has the car been polished?
It is obvious that the car has been polished to an extreme. Compare the engine bay pic with the rest of the car. The underside of the rubber trunk mat is more like original condition than the top; it's obviously been sprayed with some treatment. Same for the tires - compare to the spare in the trunk.

Also, the SS bumpers should have oxidized noticeably at this age; clearly they have been polished, possibly removed and polished. Again, compare to the engine bay.

If not one of the production bodies, how about posting the serial number/VIN? The records should verify its origin as a factory special.

The milage is curious. It's too high for it to have been a show car, yet low as if it has been unused for a long time. We all know that unused Alfas do not fare well. Engine rings corrode, seize, head gaskets leak, most rubber gaskets harden and leak.

I am especially curious at the extreme shine of the paint INSIDE the trunk. Original Alfas did not look like this; I have some old film photos of my 67 Duetto (which I bought brand new a loooong time ago) and it does not look like this. Same for the engine bay. This is NOT consistent with the original paint of the 60's era. NO clear-coats were available then, and no paint would keep that much shine for 40 years without a lot of hands-on. If this was original, it was not from the production line, and the paint had to receive special treatment from the bare body on.

This is an interesting car - I kinda like the mix-mash of interior stuff - not a production original or dealer stuff, yet likely all Alfa. Never saw a red carpet on any 69 (but I don't know that many 69 Alfas); can't quite see the quilted shoe buffer on the driver's side. It does look nice though!

By inspection, this not an original UNTOUCHED car. It clearly has been "touched" a lot. It also seems to have been in several hands, so it really does not have well documented "provenance" that the poster/seller can attest to.

It certainly is unique. I'd be curious about its mechanical condition. Otherwise, it's a trailer-queen show car. Lots of pretty lipstick though. Not what most Alfisti look for.

Price seems high even for the more desirable 66-67 Duetto 1600's is super condition. Low milage is OK, but has not been a big $$ issue for most Alfas, and its mechanical condition is not mentioned at all (??). Its only claim on that airspace is its "original"-ness, which has been compromised by all the polishing and other unknown work. Documentation of its history would go a long way.

I hope I can see it at Pebble too.

Robert

PS - the black radiator cap is curious too. Is that just a trick of the photo? Same for the wiper fittings. ON my Duetto, and a neighbor's 1750 these are SS. They look black on this car too. Another photo issue?
 

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Discussion Starter #29 (Edited)
Are you having fun yet ?

Hi folks,

Following are my responses to some recent posts on this thread.

To divotandtralee

I don't recall saying that I was "reluctant to sell my car at an auction" anywhere in this entire thread, nor did I say that "restored cars are cheaper".
Maybe you imagined both those ideas ?

I only recently decided that since I'd be in Carmel all week, and the car was going to be delivered to me there, that I'd try to exhibit it in the Show on Ocean Ave, on Tuesday August 14th. They graciously approved my application.
It was my wife's idea to offer it for sale on the B.B., to save shipping it back home, and since we are running out of garage space in Chicago.
Thank you for your advise divotandtralee, but, please relax, I'll deal with it.


To Sandy Eggo

JWHALFA = Jerry ..... Are you the "Sandy" from the Alfa Owners Club in Chicago in the 1970s and 1980s ?


To PeterS

You are welcome.


And now,
To 60sRacer ..... OH MY GOD !

Q. Read it as: has the car been polished?
A. Cleaned and waxed by Jim Hand of "Detailed by Hand" , Glenn Ellyn, IL

To all your statements of opinion,
"It is obvious that the car has been polished, to an extreme, bla, bla, bla, the spare in the trunk, Also, the SS bumpers should have oxidized, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla."

You can tell all this from thousands of miles away by the photos I posted ? Great photography !

In fact, the entire car has been cleaned and waxed by hand ....... top, bottom, interior, engine bay, engine, drivetrain, trunk, tires, wheels ... all of it done by Jim Hand of "Detailed By Hand", in Glenn Ellyn, IL.
Like my car, he's the best. Try him, you'll like him.

"If not one of the production bodies, bla, bla, bla, bla bla."

Where did I say it was not a production body? I said it was manufactured in December 1968, and that except for the headlight covers and interior color, it was totally like every other 1969 Spider ( EXCEPT FOR ITS CONDITION AND MILEAGE ) Check with the "Storico" if you want to.

"How about posting the serial number/VIN? The records should verify its origin as a factory special."

Where did I say it was a "Factory Special" ?

VIN is AR1480215 ..... check it out
By the way, blow up the open trunk photo. You can see the ORIGINAL DUCO paint code decal, not a re-pro and not painted around either.

"The milage is curious, It's too high, yet low, as if bla, bla, bla, bla bla, engine rings , head gaskets, most rubber gaskets, bla, bla, bla.

The car has always been maintained by Mike Besic, of "Besic Motorsports", also in Glenn Ellyn, IL. He did misplace my original radiator cap, so I guess it's not such a great car afterall. We've also re-installed the correct Lodge Spark plugs, and original green spark plug and distributor wires since these pictures were taken.
Again, like my car, Mike's the best. Try him, you'll like him.

I am especially curious at the extreme shine of the paint INSIDE the trunk, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla.
I hope I can see it at Pebble too.
Robert
PS - the black radiator cap is curious, bla, bla, the wiper fittings, ON my Duetto, and a neighbor's, bla, bla bla, Another photo issue?, bla, bla bla.

I'm sorry Bob, but you're just too much for me to deal with here. This is the "For Sale and Looking For" forum.
If you just want to talk about the car or ask questions, please send me a PM, and we can exchange phone numbers and discuss your questions.

I posted the car here as being for sale on Wednesday, August 15th, the day AFTER the Show on Ocean Avenue in Carmel.

Come and see it at the show if you can, and if you're interested in buying it AFTER WEDNESDAY, we can talk in person about it then.
I've had several PMs from interested parties, so they'll have to come first.

THAT'S ALL FOLKS !

JWHALFA
 

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Those little black coloured wiper "caps" are correct. The ones on may car are stainless steel. When I removed them, there was black "paint" on the inside. I had the powder coated. Sales brochures and factory photos seem to disagree. Please see this image from the US sales brochure.



The red carpet look like new. And, the handbrake boot looks new too. The repro handbrake boots have a dull finish, the original has a bit of a shine to it as on this car. The edges of all of the interior mats, should have a texture to them as seen in the picture below. They also should have the Farina part number on them as seen in the very same picture. The only thing I find odd is the interior colour combination. Being an early production car, it should have traditional lap belts and not the ones in the picture just below.



The best way for any seller to show that the mileage is accurate is with maintenance records. Since the car has been maintained my Mike Besic, I am sure the seller can show receipts to back up the mileage claim (don't mean to imply anything negative, here). As a buyer, it's up to you to ask for those records.

Jerry, is there any chance you could take a snap shot of the drivers side door jam? The early production cars had a decal in them that looked like the one pictured below.



By the way, if you look at the picture of the engine bay, you can tell that the paint on the body has faded a bit in comparison to that of the engine compartment.

Personally, I'd love to see this car in person. If it is a survivor, it would be a great opportunity to document some things.
 

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Thanks Osso. I knew you'd be the expert on the 1750 variations. My wiper bits are polished SS (except the bolt which is aluminum), with no paint residue, and were that way as new. But my car is a 67 Duetto, which is different in many ways.....

BTW - the hand brake boot is shiny like all the other rubber bits - it's been treated to the nines by its detailer, not because its especially original. I actually find the dullness and marks on the untreated underside of the trunk mat as a better sign of its originality.

JW - sorry lad, I didn't mean to cause you to fret. Your car is interesting if unusual, and I like some of its unique things. I like the Cream-color door cards and seats, and the red carpet, even though it does look a lot like the same-era Fiat Spider in this livery.

Little details are oft watched closely here. There were many small variants in the Alfas, especially in the 66 - 70 era when Italy was more "On Strike" than "At Work". It seems like cars were assembled from whatever parts were in the bins on any given day, so we pay attention to the small variations. It's kinda like a "Where's Waldo" game. I apologize if you were offended.

If it's still around, it'd be really special to see the car at the Concourse at the AROC National in Canada, or one of the AROSC shows here in SoCal. There are some nearly perfect Alfas it'd face....

As Osso says, it'd be very interesting if the car really is a "survivor". It's almost a shame that it has been so well polished; that takes off some of the cache'.

Robert
 

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Note in the Spider threads that this car is listed in the Highwood Duetto register as # 26 (slightly out of order - it follows 26a, 26b, 27) of the first group of US spec 1750's. Same license number and same interior, listed to Jerry Hamen and dated 2009. Several of the photos are identical to those posted here, so they are not recent pics:

1480001->

Robert
 

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This is a great looking Spider. But come on folks its a car. All these oohs and awes. Its a car. It will eventually rust or break down or maybe even be smashed in an accident. Let us have some semblance of perspective here. Children are starving. People are homeless. Its just a car.

M. A. Thomas

P.S. I do own an Alfa
 

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I wonder if people are hoping that the posted price will turn real, so their cars will suddenly become worth all the $$ they are constantly spending....

Yes, it's just a car. Unusual interior (is that good or bad?). Lots of polish. Heavy handed marketing effort to create some buzz. Wasn't so much in 2009.

Robert
 

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Discussion Starter #36 (Edited)
Just the facts, Bob, just the facts.

To 60sRacer

Bob,
You're at it again.
Busily offering your opinions, quoting other sources, and probably all that time spent not really interested in owning a car like this, just "BLOGGING" about them.
First of all, doesn't it trouble you to be quoting the Highwood Duetto Register in relation to this car since it's not really a "Duetto", but actually a 1750 Spider ?
Which is it Bob, a 1750 Spider, or a Duetto, 1750 Spider, Duetto ? What a quandary !
Then you mention that it's #26 of the first group of US spec 1750s !
Wow, must be a late one !
You're correct, it is the car listed in the Highwood 1750 Register.
My friends encouraged me to list it there as did the keeper of the Register.
So there you have it.
You got me.
I'm Jerry Hamen. I'm 66 years old. Bought my first Alfa when I was 18. Owned twelve since then. Down to four at this point. Any other info you want the public to have ?

Now, please look at the pictures carefully.
ALL the pictures in the Register were taken at the AROC Convention in 2008.
Then sent to the Register in 2009 at their request.
In all of those pictures, the car is on it's original tires and wheels.
ALL the other pictures shown herein with the P6 tires and Alfaholic wheels were taken last August in Chicago, the day before the car was shipped to the Concorso Italiano.
Those pictures are ALL less than a year old.

Just the facts, Bob, just the facts.
Stop by and see the car next Tuesday.
I doubt you'll ever see another one like it.

Really Bob, Stop by, You need to relax, I'll buy you a beer.

JWHALFA
 

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Much too much useless talk on this thread. There are only two salient points: (1) this car is not "original", period; (2) seller is a speculator looking to make a fast buck on a car that is not worth and that will not sell for 60k anytime soon (as in the next 20 years).
End of story.
 

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Much too much useless talk on this thread. There are only two salient points: (1) this car is not "original", period; (2) seller is a speculator looking to make a fast buck on a car that is not worth and that will not sell for 60k anytime soon (as in the next 20 years).
End of story.
This is what I call ”a constructive comment”
Not me, neither you can decide if the price is right. Market will do.
 

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....Then you mention that it's #26 of the first group of US spec 1750s !....Wow, must be a late one !
JWHALFA[/B]
It's just the 26th one in that register, by serial number it was around the 500th built (Alfa did not assemble cars in exact order due to pre-painted bodies from Pininfarina that were assembled as needed to fill orders). About 8,700 were built in 1968 to 1970, when the Kamm-tail was introduced.

Robert (not Bob)
 

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JWH, you have broken the golden rule. You just can not come on this board and say you have the "best" of anything .... much less a duetto ... folks would argue with you over a match stick, nice car, 60 grand?
 
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