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I think the second picture of the red Giulia and the Super shows a good comparison as to how the new cars have grown. If the picture of the blue Giulia and the Alfetta sedan had been taken head on as well, I suspect you would see the same comparison in size. The photo, as it is posed, doesn't show the true perspective.

As for safety, yes, cars have improved, but there is always something bigger out there regardless of the size of your car. I wouldn't want to argue with a Kenworth in any regular modern car.
 

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Let's put that car up to a 1975 Olds Cutless. ;) then we can talk huge and bulky. May not argue with kenworth but you'd be far safer in a modern car vs a 70's, 80's or 90's car. ;) I like vintage but I also like modern, they intrigue me both with nostalgia and amazement.
 

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Some history

Back in the early 1970s, Alfa began to increase the displacement of the engine. Beginning with 1300, it went to 1600, 1750 and 2000.
Each increase in HP for the Coupe and Spider was accompanied by an increase in comfort. Designed by the sales department. Which meant an increase in weight. But always designed to net out with a slight increase in acceleration. Which was the key measurement at the time.
Those of us with 1600 Supers LONGED for one with at 2 L. No other changes that would have included weight.
They could have sold thousands of them.
It would have been fully equivalent to today's Giulia.
But when I think about it, the original Super was outstanding.
How do I know?
Sigh.
 

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The spectre of a collision with pretty much any modern car while I’m driving the GTV6 scares me quite a bit actually. To the point where there’s lots of times I end up taking out my VW. It’s actually weighing on my mind as I consider buying an S4 Spider (an even smaller car!) as we speak. I used to have a a Ducati when I lived in upstate NY but sold it when moving to NYC simply because there’s so many big cars with barely competent (or incompetent) drivers behind the wheel.

It makes me wonder how’s much longer anyone will be driving these older cars except on a track or trailering them to a show, especially as cars probably will continue to get bigger and heavier.
 

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"especially as cars probably will continue to get bigger and heavier"

Big SUVs, etc, are a fad these days, the price of gas in America being ridiculously low, plus people spending more money than they really have, many not even able to pay for financial or medical emergency situations, or a real retirement according to WSJ.

Upcoming mandated mileage standards will end up dictating the size of future gas powered vehicles, generally requiring them to be smaller, regardless of safety requirements. Thus the attraction of electric vehicles.

Finally, we all want to be at least reasonably safe, for sure. The question being, though, just how safe does one need to be and still function meaningfully or have enjoyment? Among humans, it is clearly a variable. Some love to risk it all, some have trouble coming out of their houses. And I don't blame anyone for wanting to protect their families all they can.

I still choose to drive a reasonably safe vehicle to get around, and enjoy the driving in general, but I will not do certain things, such as for instance ever fly in a small twin prop driven airplane, say a Cessna 340, mainly because if an engine gives trouble on takeoff, which seems to happen now and then with these, the survival rate is listed as ~2%, since almost no pilots know how to recover from that. I also do not fly in helicopters, just a loose collection of parts flying in close formation (and I was an aircraft structural engineer). And, I no longer scuba dive.

We all make our choices. No problem.

Finally, returning to the original subject, I'm also not sure about the long term destiny/fate for Alfa Romeo. FCA are probably spending a ton of money on the F1 racing, and I figure that money could be better spent on decent advertising, and upgrading the dealerships to the standards generally set by the Asians for their upscale vehicles, at least for their single largest potential market, the USA.

Unless it is a cult style product, such as Apple products (although their phone sales are way off now), or Ferrari, advertising is what sells the product. For almost all vehicles, the normal potential customer has to be enticed to enter the dealership to see the product, and advertising is what does it (remember the original Subaru 360 imported into the States, lol? Dismal to say the least, but Subaru understood the need for extensive local advertising (and infinitely better cars), and now for some years the brand has been very very popular, and they've stood behind it). Actually, though, some might argue that Subaru is also somewhat a cult product in some areas.

Unless FCA's directions for Alfa Romeo change, they will have trouble maintaining sufficient sales. It's clearly not the fault of the car itself.
 

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They are looking at going electric. They will have to with VW and others going that way. I think electric is the stepping stone to alternative fuels. Problem with electric is weight and for the most part most of the electricity to fuel these cars is done with coal. At the moment, electricity (even from coal-burning powerplants) has the best carbon footprint per mile driven. Compared to a 25-mpg car, fueling an electric car even on the dirtiest power grid in the country emits less carbon per mile than burning gasoline.
Unless the US does more wind and solar, knocks out coal, electric is going to be short lived. It also takes up massive amounts of minerals from the ground. All of this is politics.

As far as people living beyond their means, oh for sure. 2008 Recession proved that. New recession coming might also prove it again.

Not sure the fate of any car company to be honest. Even Honda is struggling. I think in the coming years there will be a huge shift to become more minimal, reduce number cars, size and bling. Maybe... The US is a wasteful country. SUV's I think are not a fad, they serve a function for some. I own one and have no issues saying I own one. It's a Touareg and it fits my family and dog. My giulia or something smaller, would not do so well with a 75lb dog, car seat and so forth. But I am game for something smaller and more economical although it is a diesel and does well in that respect for an SUV with around 25+mph. More if I use biofuel (which I do).

To be a game player, FCA needs to work on alternative fuels and start with electric/hybrids. They are already planning on it.

https://electrek.co/2018/06/01/fca-new-all-electric-vehicles-jeep-maserati-models/

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/11/fiat-500-ev-fca-battery-electric/

I really don't see them dying out hardcore about ICE's, they need to survive and evolve. Alfa has always been innovative. They will survive. Electric/hybrid is the next step.

I drove a Tesla Model S the other day. Neat car. Would I get bored in it? Maybe but driving these days is not what it use to be either, more people = more cars = no where to go. I think this is why we have SCCA, that's where you can actually drive.
 

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Friend on mine had a Touareg for a while, but found it a little big. I don't know about that myself, but I did find it a stretch to get into and out of from the rider's seat. He traded it in on a Tesla Model X, which he loves and drives the hell out of. It is sooo fast, BUT, no cup holders in the rear. A real drawback, lol.

I have noticed that many smaller SUVs and Crossovers have not quite as much room in the back for luggage as many sedans. Plus, there has to be a cover over whatever you put in the back, as compared to the trunk/boot lid of a sedan. Another friend rented an SUV when he came to visit several years ago, and while at the store, with his travel papers in the back, no cover, everything was stolen. Does make me wonder why people would buy these vehicles. I suppose it's because in most, they sit higher, which they think allows them to see further, thus they tend to tailgate, something I experience whenever I go out driving.

As for Alfas continuing, I still think they should not be spending a ton of money on F1, even if it is kind of neat to see them racing. They just cannot afford it, even if they are using Ferrari engines. They need it for advertising and dealer prep, etc, esp in the US, where F1 is a very minor sport indeed.
 

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Friend on mine had a Touareg for a while, but found it a little big. I don't know about that myself, but I did find it a stretch to get into and out of from the rider's seat. He traded it in on a Tesla Model X, which he loves and drives the hell out of. It is sooo fast, BUT, no cup holders in the rear. A real drawback, lol.

I have noticed that many smaller SUVs and Crossovers have not quite as much room in the back for luggage as many sedans. Plus, there has to be a cover over whatever you put in the back, as compared to the trunk/boot lid of a sedan. Another friend rented an SUV when he came to visit several years ago, and while at the store, with his travel papers in the back, no cover, everything was stolen. Does make me wonder why people would buy these vehicles. I suppose it's because in most, they sit higher, which they think allows them to see further, thus they tend to tailgate, something I experience whenever I go out driving.

As for Alfas continuing, I still think they should not be spending a ton of money on F1, even if it is kind of neat to see them racing. They just cannot afford it, even if they are using Ferrari engines. They need it for advertising and dealer prep, etc, esp in the US, where F1 is a very minor sport indeed.
I agree. The racing thing is not what it use to be. It does not promote the brand like in the past and they need to focus on technology and selling the cars properly with proper dealer network.

Actually the touareg is pretty small compared to all the others. Depends on the year but early years were much higher and carried the 4x4 system, new ones are 2" lower and only have all the sensors for AWD. Not a true 4x4 system. Lighter and better MPG. I have the older style. ;) So yes, it takes a step stool for some to get into, for me, it's perfect. Drives like a car and I can take it offroad that 2% of the time. ;) I would not mind giving it up but the wife likes SUV's. I am a small sedan person. So we compromise with a smaller SUV. I will be working her into a Stelvio if I can. ;)
 

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Both models of the 4C are WAY TOO SMALL

Both the 4C Coupe and Spider are ridiculously small for the American market where Alfa probably hoped to sell well.
The Cabins of both cars are much tighter than Giulietta and Giulia Coupes and Spiders from the 1950s and 1960s.
When the cars were introduced, the average younger American drivers were considerably taller and more robust in size than in 1960, even if they are in great shape physically.
Why did they make those beautiful cars SO DARN SMALL ?
 

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You mean small on the inside, with doors so thick, windows small, etc. Safety rules, where the authorities are trying to make the cars impervious, in other words, a cocoon with a built in roll cage. I remember test driving a new 'Mini' (one of the BMW fakeroos), and discovered that it seemed to have less room in it than my old real Minis, lol, even if it is much larger on the outside, and weighs maybe at least half ton more.

Absolute safety at all costs. Just how safe need we be?
 

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After posting (#15) about the closing of the Alfa store in Edmond, OK, I spoke with son again and he said that the sales manager said he lost money on every Giulia he sold due to battery problems.

Trey said that the guy told him that people buying Alfas today aren't Alfa people, most are "Look as my fancy Italian car" people who just don't drive them very often.

I know Trey wasn't making it up because he doesn't read car mags or blogs enough to pick up on this. He just likes how they look and remembers out beloved '88 Milano Verde. He and his brothers still talk ab out how the engine sounded when it would be singing so sweet. Best sounding engine ever0:)
 

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Alfa lost its way a long time ago

Alfa Romeo was, like many other Italian marques, a sportscar with a day-to-day component. Maserati had the Mexico and Quattroporte. Ferrari had a 2+2 or two. Alfa had the Berlinettas.

When Fiat acquired the brand and decided, as it did with Maserati and the Biturbo and Ghibli II, that it should be a mass market nameplate, it completely disenfranchised the car and its history. The 8C Competizione should have been half the price and, if it had been, it would have conquered the world. The 4C is the bizarro version of an automobile. Whoever designed it should be taken out behind the cathedral and shot. Multiple times.

The Giuliettas and Giulias remain classic. Even the Alfetta, as mechanically quirky as it was, is distinctive. But the current models reek of wannabe plainness. The logic seems to be that if Porsche can have an SUV, so can we. It's a virtual plague, and it affects Maserati, Bentley, and even Lamborghini. What's wrong with these people? As soon as you "down market" a vehicle, its hard earned reputation sinks like a stone.
 

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The 4C is the bizarro version of an automobile. Whoever designed it should be taken out behind the cathedral and shot. Multiple times.
LOL :lol:

Unfortunately, if Fiat had not bought Alfa, Alfa might no longer exist. (Or, perhaps, a some other carmaker might have bought them and completely ruined them even more so than Fiat did). The 4C had so much potential, but ultimately fell flat because it was too niche. If the car was a little more comfortable and a little less of a dedicated track car (in other words, a true GT car), it would have laid a better groundwork for the eventual return of the Giulia (and Stelvio).
 

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The only constant in life is change. I can live with that, although I suppose there are those who cannot.

I for one, will not disrespect the people who have worked tirelessly since the 1980s, for and with Alfa Romeo, to revive the brand and see that it carries forward into the future. Indeed, it has done so. I value and recognize those who have created, labored, worried, argued, campaigned and toiled for Alfa Romeo. Like Henry Ford, I take off my hat to them.

The 750 Giuliettas were only built once, and they will not return. Accept that and go on. Before one critiques latter day Alfas, drive them first and absorb their new DNA. Take off the Archie Bunker hat and enjoy them. Understand that they are and necessarily will be different. And please, show some respect for those who brought them to reality. They are wonderfully talented and educated people... all of them.

I rest my case.
 

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Any successful sports car combines form and function. I never drove a 4C because I wouldn't even use it as a hearse. In other words, I wouldn't be caught dead in it. It has all the allure of a lug nut.

By contrast, the 8C looks invincible, as if it could cut through the wind like a missile and arrive with all the style of Milan. The 4C looks like someone from Gold's Gym whose taken w-a-y too many steroids and now can't walk or move without looking unnatural. And yet, that's the current trend among cars from Ferrari, Lotus, and other hyper-masculine brands. It's body building showboating instead of ballet power and grace.

Maserati, after the glow of the A6Gs, reached its pinnacle with the original Ghibli. Alfa had a multitude of post-war cars that merited acclaim. But the recent crop of crapulous designs has no distinction once you get beyond the grill. Even if they performed like a car being driven by Fangio, their appearance would make them unlovable. And that's what the market has made clear.
 

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GiuliettaAlfredo please look at the youtube video by savagegeese on the 4C and I think it sums up the car perfectly. Aesthetics are very subjective but many people like the looks and dimensions of the car.

A design study was made some years before it was launched and exhibited at motor shows and the reaction to that design (small as it was) was very positive so FCA decided to build it but put probably 80% of the money into the carbon fibre tub structure of the car. The engine/gearbox and suspension was borrowed wholesale from the Alfa Romeo Giulietta QV (not sold in USA) but with an all aluminum engine, so saving cost and the interior was basic and not really premium but significantly more comfy and roomy than the Lotus Elise which was the closest competitor really. The aim was lightness and they succeeded with a weight well below the tonne and makes the car super responsive.
However they were too cost conscious and the lack of double wishbones on the rear hampered handling/ride and the steering was not as feelsome as a non assisted rack should be, esepcially compared to the Lotus. There was also turbo lag and no manual shift.
Lastly no decent luggage space which I think they could have engineered into the front.

The current similar philosophy car on sale is the Renault Alpine and because the structure is Aluminum all the money was spent rightly on the mechanics and suspension setup, including double wishbones all round, while still keeping the weight low (1100kg) but again with no manual and very little luggage capacity. However the dynamics, steering and suspension/handling have been lauded by motor journalists and makes it such a pity a little more money and effort was not put into the Alfa 4C. There are a few modified 4Cs in Italy with a longitudinal NA engine and pushrod suspension, but Alfa Romeo should have done the same!

Regarding Alfa Romeos place in the market the marque (before it became only a brand of FCA in 1986) was seriously downgraded post 1945. Before the war Alfa ROmeo were super expensive and the Ferraris of their time.
The cars post 1945 were mass produced and affordable to the professional person in Italy even if the cars were much more expensive abroad due to taxes. Up to about 1975 the Alfa Romeos were premium sports vehicles.
The introduction of the Alfasud and the change of director in the early 1970s pushed Alfa Romeo to compete mainstream and the alfetta platform was never replaced; the Alfa 164 was on a different platform but not Alfas and not what they wished in a number of respects.

The Giulia and Stelvio are aimed at the more premium segment now with higher pricing to compete with other premium marques but I agree the styling of the cars did not really catch my attention so much, even is they are discreetly handsome. From what I read they deliberately made the Giulia more BMW like since their cars were the sector masters and sold well or perhaps the modern aerodynamics of cars makes them much less easy to be so different in design while fulfilling their aero and efficiency aims. However for me the Giulia is too big and with too small a trunk also. Their standout factor must be the QV engines designed by Ferrari engineers and that is cool!
 

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The McPherson strut or Chapman strut mimics double wishbone geometry quite well and holds alignment settings much better. In fact a McPherson strut will hold correct alignment more or less indefinitely, in part because only toe is adjustable.

Given the slagging it seems to receive from suspension guru wannabes it is a little ironic that the McPherson strut works even better on a sportscar than on a more softly sprung sedan. Stiffer springs mean shorter travel and less camber change with suspension movement, the McPherson strut's supposed Achilles heel.

The 4C is a great sportscar, but the turbo engine sounds a little like a tractor engine. Turbos do that, the characteristic noise sportscar lovers want is from the exhaust and a turbo just flattens that sound. Turbo engines also trade rpm for bmep. So you don't get the zing from high rpm shifting. Ferrari has fixed this to some extent by altering the boost pressure curve to reduce bmep at low rpm while retaining high bmep at high rpm. It's engineering nonsense but gets a better engine sound.

The popularity of SUVs has nothing to do with what car makers want to build. It is often forgotten that business supplies only what people will buy. Always. What people want, or think they want, may make no sense but supplying what the consumer thinks he or she wants is what business managers do if they want to stay employed.
 
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