Alfa Romeo Forums banner

41 - 60 of 217 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,501 Posts
To all of the "New Alfas" naysayers and negative nellies and to those who are just itching to be "right" about the new cars and about the brand's ultimate demise in the US, I say this - just go and drive a new one. Come by the shop and we'll jump in the Quadrifoglio for a quick romp - you'll be BLOWN away! Yes, I have an automatic car (oh the humanity!) It was a good compromise with my leading lady who refuses my best efforts to get her into a manual of any kind...

Anyway, just once, drive a QV - even in a base car - and this coming from a died-in-the-wool manual die-hard! The fit and finish is amazing. The styling is superb and the performance speaks for itself. Our club president here in the Seattle area has had his 2.0 for 35,000+ flawless miles since new! We've had zero problems with our Quadrifoglio and we service about four other QVs for customers beyond our 2017.

Yeah, there are dealers who have stopped supporting the brand in small markets, but that's to be expected. The automotive press can wipe their collective arses with their magazines; nothing drives like a loaner and these press guys hammering the living crap out of these cars and then experiencing intermittent glitches on 20K, 30K, 40K miles cars, are outliers.

Every time I get into mine, the dial goes straight to "Race Mode" and I am selecting my shifts - it's just a slightly different hand-gesture and angle to the paddles, but it's still shifting at some level. I have 20+ manual cars - happy that this is a (150-millisecond shifting) automatic. Long live the ZF 8HP.

Besides, Magnus Walker seems to like it -
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,431 Posts
I guess I agree with Steve, getting (too) old to buy a new car, unless I were to come across a really really really good deal, esp for the Quad, regardless of type of transmission. I'm sure I could have lots of fun.

Trouble is, wouldn't know which car to get rid of since the wife says, three cars is enough. The wife likes her Milano for racing around (she being a stickshift person even more than I), the 91S has been a very reliable and fun DD for us for decades, still in fine condition, and I just love to drive the LS as a hot rod Q, very visceral, and fast enough?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,924 Posts
I have driven manual Alfas since 1968 but, would not mind owning a Giulia QV Coupe when it is produced. I recently drove a Stelvio QV and wish that Alfa made that type of car twenty years ago. I drove Lamborghini and Maserati cars in 1969 and they were much faster than my 1961 Sprint Veloce. I always wanted a much faster Alfa and my 1988 Milano Verde was alright in 1988 but, it need another 100 Hp. I would like to buy one more new Alfa before I have to turn in my driver's license.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
521 Posts
The Alfa that got me hooked was a 1986 Alfa Romeo 33:

https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/alfa-romeo-33-1983.html#aeng_alfa-romeo-33-1983-17

I learned to drive manual transmission on that car in 1996 through the roads of Sicily. I STILL can't get the engine/exhaust note of that boxer 4 out of my head. It was FWD, but it handled like it was on rails and was one of the most engaging cars I've ever driven (or ridden in!). The version I drove was a 1.7 Quadrifoglio, with 117hp and only about 2,000 pounds to haul around. And it was a relatively affordable 5 door hatchback that was basically an "evolution' of the Alfasud. I think Alfa Romeo sold north of 1,000,000 examples of this car in it's production run (1983-1995).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,744 Posts
Cars are bigger than they used to be because they must be crashproof for dumbish drivers.

Modern automatic transmissions are so good you won't really miss the manual shift versions.

The Giulia is a superb car, no debate is possible about that. Maybe you don't like the Giulia but that won't be because it is a bad car. It's unbelievably good.

But, its bigger than a 164 on the outside and much smaller than a 164 on the inside.

Blame crazy collision tests for this. Cars are now engineered to be crashed safely rather than driven safely. The next step is to take away the incompetent driver's right to crash safely. Is it possible that these new driver aids will allow car makers to go back to making cars that need not be crashproof? Is there a silver lining to autonomous car engineering!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
503 Posts
Alfa Romeo have been, how can i say it, chasing well heeled clients that would purchase a premium sedan or SUV such as Audi, BMW, Porsche, Mercedes Benz.
FCA rightly perceived that seeking to reposition Alfa Romeo as a premium only brand of FCA (I say brand because Alfa Romeo died as a marque in 1986 and its philosophy and engineering principles along with it) would bring in greater profits for use in R&D for future models, something marques like BMW have been doing for years because their "perceived" paint and interior quality, not to mention a superior dealer support, merited that higher price premium. However the execution and marketing of the Alfa Romeo product has been ....difficult and illjudged in my opinion.

Sure FCA produced a "skunkworks" for their new Giorgio Platform resulting in the Guilia Quadrifoglio, leveraging the engineering skills of the ex Ferrari project manager of the Ferrari 458 speciale and various other Ferrari engineers, so that the new Giulia Quadrifoglio was a new start in terms of platform and engineering and did not use a modified Fiat platform or Fiat parts, or pooled configurations with other marques as did previous Alfas in Europe starting with the Alfa 155 (based on a Fiat); the Alfa 164 was FWD compromised only because SAAB refused a RWD only setup. However despite stellar reviews for both the Giulia and Stelvio Quadrifoglio they are not backed up by historically high residuals on the cars and historically good dealer support.

Alfa Romeo first had a chance to make a great comeback with the Alfa Romeo 4C in the states where the myth of the brand was developed in the 1960s and 1970s with the 105 series but they put all the money into the carbon fibre tub and then transferred wholesale the engine and suspension of the Giulietta Quadrifoglio (sold in Europe not the USA) into the Alfa 4C and also gave it a cheap interior.
A carbon fibre tub is modern and excellent as a basis but then FCA became cost conscious and ruined the car by not putting double wishbones in the rear and shut off enthusiasts by not developing a manual. IT then received mainly negative reviews in the UK where i am. Alfa should have made the engine longitudinal and added rear double wishbones to make a mini Ferrari!
Instead the new Renault Alpine has been lauded by every reviewer and correctly uses double wishbones at every corner which gave superb ride and handling.

Regarding the Giulia they overpromised existing alfa guys in the USA with the manual before it arrived and then underdelivered when they offered auto only in the USA. The Giulia is still a formidable car with the auto gearbox and with both the four cylinder and Ferrari v6 engine with class leading responses and handling but it is as other have pointed out "too large"! The price entry point for the v6 is also too expensive and stuffed with electronics and Alfa's dealer history is not the best so for a new customer used to German marques it is difficult.

Alfa Romeo are you listening?!! Where is Alfa's version of the BMW M2 competition? The BMW M2 Competition is the spiritual successor to the original M3 in terms of size and is reported by many reviewers as being the only BMW to capture the feel of the original M3 within the right size sedan!
Remove all the plastic engine covers please of the Ferrari V6 used in the Alfa Quadrifoglio, stuff it into a Giulietta sized sedan (BMW M2 proportions) based on a shortened Giorgio platform, use double wishbones up front and multilink rear, cut our electronics wherever possible or leave them as options (like electric interior gadgets for seats or comfort or infotainment) and lighten the cars unsprung weight and seats and bodywork wherever possible. Maybe a peformance pack option for better aero or braking like the Z51 package on Corvettes for a reasonable cost option. Also make everything "modular" so the average Joe can fix parts in a garage in isolation from other parts (modular) and then modify said parts for fitment with the other module parts within the car so that the spirit of the tuneability of the old 105s is kept alive! Lastly think about offering a stick shift as an option like Porsche has with success with its cars! electric hybrid versions can be preempted using electronic braking and steering as is the case with the Giulia and Stelvio at present.

Oh and made a coupe and convertible Alfa Romeo on the same lines based on a shortened Giorgio platform too, but with decent practicality and luggage space.

I would say smaller sized sedan, coupe and convertible Alfa ROmeos, reasonably priced and easy to work on and tune would reinvigorate the brand and create many more sales.

Lastly keep working on dealer support excellence!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,744 Posts
The 164 was very late to the party which is why it was fwd. SAAB had been working with Italdesign at the same time as Lancia were looking at Giugiaro's "big small family car" already in the works by 1980 or so. There never was talk of a rwd version of that platform. Lancia developed an awd version which Alfa also built.

Alfa got into fwd with the fantastic but flawed Alfasud way back in the 70's.

BMW's "cheap" cars are bloody awful to drive and very inefficient from a packaging perspective. I'd take a Golf over a 1 or 2 series BMW any day.

Alfa is on the right track by eschewing the mass market. It won't be too long before it becomes pretty obvious that Europe and North America can't really afford to build and market cheap cars to anybody. The niche markets are all that will be remaking for them. High margins and small volumes.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,431 Posts
The Giulia is a bigger car than we would want if we had the choice from Alfa. IMHO, just a little too big, boxy? The 164 is a bigger Alfa than we have ever previously owned, and wish it were a little smaller, but regardless of the snobs against the car, it does look nice, and drives pretty darn well, and sounds just as an Alfa should in comparison to the Giulia, for which you have to pay a lot of money for a better aftermarket sound.

When we rented a Giulietta in Italy, we had a ball with that sized car, even if the car was of the previous generation, and a frumpy design. It just plain worked well for us on many a curvy road, even if it was a diesel, yet holding all of our luggage with ease.

Since I was first introduced to Alfa with the late fifties and early sixties Sprint Coupes, and then the Sprint GT, with friends having the Super, those are the sizes we still like. Sports cars with two and four door bodies. Now, granted, I like the increased power of the V6 engines, but then again, had so much fun driving the lower powered earlier cars.

I guess we would long for a Giulietta sized, well designed/appointed, superior handling, four door or wagon vehicle, maybe 159 sized, similar to my friend's 2000 Audi A4, complete with manual as his is (although his Audi is a little slow, with no sound, ie, somewhat boring).

Oh well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
503 Posts
Michael regarding the Alfa 164, Alfa Romeo engineers pressed very hard for a RWD platform since Alfa Romeo was a marque when this decision was taken. SAAB refused to accept FWD! Ex alfa engineers of the period were not too happy!

Regarding the Alfasud, Alfanord were furious about the introduction of the Alfasud without "any input" from them because IRI their government owners were not interested in cars or in Alfa ROmeo! Alfa Romeo had to stop major funding for development of the alfetta or Montreal to develop the Alfasud and it was a political decision. The RWD alfas developed from 1972 until 1986 when Alfa was bought by FIAT, were all based on the alfetta platform and again ex engineers spoken to were upset that no funds were given for development of a new platfrom or a modern Alfa sedan or coupe in the 1980s!

BMW's M2 Competition with a detuned M4 405hp engine and choice of manual or auto, engineered by BMW's M division, who I respect as an Alfa enthusiast and is as I said very positively received by reviewers.

Post 1945 Alfa Romeo was always within reach of middle income car buyers and enthusiasts and should remain so!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,684 Posts
The Giulia is a bigger car than we would want if we had the choice from Alfa. IMHO, just a little too big, boxy? The 164 is a bigger Alfa than we have ever previously owned, and wish it were a little smaller, but regardless of the snobs against the car, it does look nice, and drives pretty darn well, and sounds just as an Alfa should in comparison to the Giulia, for which you have to pay a lot of money for a better aftermarket sound.

When we rented a Giulietta in Italy, we had a ball with that sized car, even if the car was of the previous generation, and a frumpy design. It just plain worked well for us on many a curvy road, even if it was a diesel, yet holding all of our luggage with ease.

Since I was first introduced to Alfa with the late fifties and early sixties Sprint Coupes, and then the Sprint GT, with friends having the Super, those are the sizes we still like. Sports cars with two and four door bodies. Now, granted, I like the increased power of the V6 engines, but then again, had so much fun driving the lower powered earlier cars.

I guess we would long for a Giulietta sized, well designed/appointed, superior handling, four door or wagon vehicle, maybe 159 sized, similar to my friend's 2000 Audi A4, complete with manual as his is (although his Audi is a little slow, with no sound, ie, somewhat boring).

Oh well.
The giulia is bigger. ;)
 

Attachments

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,431 Posts
Yup, looks big and bulky in appearance. Front end looks massive. Not exactly our bag, although in a sense the red Quad did look ok (or maybe it was the blonde driving it, lol).

"Modern automatic transmissions are so good you won't really miss the manual shift versions"

Depends on what you want from the transmission. Speed of changing gears, oh, yes, the automatic is faster. We all know that. Pleasure from successfully shifting the mechanisms, using learned and practiced physical motion skills to make the changes, shifting speed not being all that important, no.

Whatever floats your boat, where you get your fun.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,684 Posts
Yup, looks big and bulky in appearance. Front end looks massive. Not exactly our bag, although in a sense the red Quad did look ok (or maybe it was the blonde driving it, lol).

"Modern automatic transmissions are so good you won't really miss the manual shift versions"

Depends on what you want from the transmission. Speed of changing gears, oh, yes, the automatic is faster. We all know that. Pleasure from successfully shifting the mechanisms, using learned and practiced physical motion skills to make the changes, shifting speed not being all that important, no.

Whatever floats your boat, where you get your fun.
Man, "Big and Bulky" C&D is not even that cruel. It's not. It's pretty small to be honest. Just remember the wedge design is smaller in front that rear. The giulia is fairly the same front to rear and the bulky appearance is similar to the 105 Giulia. I have to disagree with the bulky appearance. I have to say is fairly smooth. Has good lines. The 164 is different in every way. Better? Nah, just different.

The 164 and the giulia are really not that much different in size. Remember my 164 is lowered so it looks smaller

I think the transmission thing has been discussed ad nauseum. Take it or leave it's a great car to drive and fun at that. I don't deeply miss shifting that practiced physical motion in no motion traffic. ;)

Great car. I have loved every minute in it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,654 Posts
A 105 series Guilia would look like a toy car next to the HUGE new Guilia. Too big for me. And no it has little to do with crash design. I drive a tiny Toyota Vitz/Yaris and it has a 5 star ANCAP safety rating (https://rightcar.govt.nz/ancap-test-result.html?q=181)

To me it is just inefficient. Yes 5 adults across the back of my 156 might be a little tight, but how often to you have a full car ... well for me, not often. Usually just 4 at most. We have fitted 5 adults in the Vitz. I guess the size was decided on relative to their competitors, and I guess that Americans feel insecure in a small car. And as it is surely a good car, it will shrink around you.
Pete
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
In Italy, Lancia sold more cars than Alfa through June...Lancia has only one model, and it's a rebranded Fiat subcompact. Granted, Lancia is heavy on incentives...
It would help if Alfa actually had a dog in the small car fight but the Mito was killed off in 2018 so they don't. Italians traditionally buy more small cars for tax reasons so comparing Lancia and Alfa sales in Italy is "apples and oranges"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,744 Posts
The giulia is bigger. ;)
The Giulia would remain bigger after a serious collision, much bigger. The Giulia is also heavier than the 164 and feels so when you drive it.

The single most deleterious result of this obsession with making an inherently dangerous activity seem safe is the damage done to the ability of engineers to design efficient cars.

Now should you have the budget of a F1 engineering team the crash regulations might be circumvented.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,744 Posts
A 105 series Guilia would look like a toy car next to the HUGE new Guilia. Too big for me. And no it has little to do with crash design. I drive a tiny Toyota Vitz/Yaris and it has a 5 star ANCAP safety rating (https://rightcar.govt.nz/ancap-test-result.html?q=181)

To me it is just inefficient. Yes 5 adults across the back of my 156 might be a little tight, but how often to you have a full car ... well for me, not often. Usually just 4 at most. We have fitted 5 adults in the Vitz. I guess the size was decided on relative to their competitors, and I guess that Americans feel insecure in a small car. And as it is surely a good car, it will shrink around you.
Pete
Well, first off, just don't try and rely on that ANCAP rating if you get mown down by a Lincoln Navigator ( these giant SUV names with truly comical connotations can be highly amusing if looked at in a certain way, irony? Sarcasm? Idiocy? Hard to tell. My current particular favourite is the Armada, I mean do marketing guys not know that one vehicle cannot constitute an Armada and that the most famous Armada in history was an abject failure? The mind boggles).

Second, try making the Yaris just a bit bigger and you'll see how quickly the weight piles on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,744 Posts
Michael regarding the Alfa 164, Alfa Romeo engineers pressed very hard for a RWD platform since Alfa Romeo was a marque when this decision was taken. SAAB refused to accept FWD! Ex alfa engineers of the period were not too happy!

Regarding the Alfasud, Alfanord were furious about the introduction of the Alfasud without "any input" from them because IRI their government owners were not interested in cars or in Alfa ROmeo! Alfa Romeo had to stop major funding for development of the alfetta or Montreal to develop the Alfasud and it was a political decision. The RWD alfas developed from 1972 until 1986 when Alfa was bought by FIAT, were all based on the alfetta platform and again ex engineers spoken to were upset that no funds were given for development of a new platfrom or a modern Alfa sedan or coupe in the 1980s!

BMW's M2 Competition with a detuned M4 405hp engine and choice of manual or auto, engineered by BMW's M division, who I respect as an Alfa enthusiast and is as I said very positively received by reviewers.

Post 1945 Alfa Romeo was always within reach of middle income car buyers and enthusiasts and should remain so!
Well, let us agree to disagree unless you have a source for your information. Since the SAAB 9000/FIAT Croma/Lancia Thema project was based on an Italdesign concept car the parameters for which were resolved and settled before SAAB even contacted Lancia let alone before Alfa was even invited to the party I prefer the commonly accepted version. In particular, SAAB was first on board with the project according to SAAB. They were quite prepared to go it alone.

The Alfasud was a brilliant little car that deserved to survive but was essentially killed by appalling labour politics in the South of Italy, politics that survive today to the continuing damage of the Italian economy.

The Alfetta series was way over engineered for the intended market and the costs of the project killed Alfa as any kind of independent brand. The production car lived up to its racing namesake in that regard, a truly mighty racecar the Alfetta was. Considering the relatively poor build quality the Alfetta sold extremely well but cost an arm and a leg to build. If you have one please preserve it (and drive the heck out of it as the design intends you to do). "Ordinary" cars like that will never be seen again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
521 Posts
The single most deleterious result of this obsession with making an inherently dangerous activity seem safe is the damage done to the ability of engineers to design efficient cars.
Indeed. The real answer to making cars and driving safer is much improved (and more stringent) driver training such that things like reckless or drunk driving are not only punished severely, but are made to be "un-cool." At least in the NYC metro area, I confess to being appalled by some of the stupid and dangerous things I see drivers doing all the time. The kicker is they think it's perfectly OK to cross 3 lanes of traffic on I-78 to make an exit; or to BACK UP on the Grand Central Pkwy because they missed an exit; to read the newspaper while driving to work; to brake - for no good reason - on a gentle bend in the expressway (where the car can easily handle the curve at well over the speed limit).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,684 Posts
A 105 series Guilia would look like a toy car next to the HUGE new Guilia. Too big for me. And no it has little to do with crash design. I drive a tiny Toyota Vitz/Yaris and it has a 5 star ANCAP safety rating (https://rightcar.govt.nz/ancap-test-result.html?q=181)

To me it is just inefficient. Yes 5 adults across the back of my 156 might be a little tight, but how often to you have a full car ... well for me, not often. Usually just 4 at most. We have fitted 5 adults in the Vitz. I guess the size was decided on relative to their competitors, and I guess that Americans feel insecure in a small car. And as it is surely a good car, it will shrink around you.
Pete
You have made it clear you don't like these cars so don't like them but don't blame American's for the size, they are sold worldwide. It's actually very tight for 5 adults. My 2 daughters 11 and 13 have a difficult time fitting in the back. They are not big either. About the same size inside as my 164. I carry 3 people in mine most of the time. So efficient for me.

American's like myself do not feel insecure in small cars. "Huge" assumption there! Some might as I am sure you heard rumors of Americans and their love for SUV's. You are painting with a broad brush my friend! Is that some sort of blast at American's, we are all fat too, carry lots of food in the trunk with our American Flags and guns. Please! We have plenty of small cars here, especially in the city. Yaris, Fiat 500's (like 4-5 on my block alone) to mini coopers, to smart cars. Plenty. Let's not also forget that 'Merica is much vaster of a country than the EU and NZ. This country is not what you believe it is. Some of what you believe is true but I believe those mentalities are not only in America!

I am not going to argue this but I like the car, it's small compared to others out there. It took no more space up than my 164. My suggestion is not commenting on the new giulia if all you plan on doing is knocking it. It's not the best Alfa ever but it's a new Alfa for us in the US as we have not seen one since 1995. So, let us have it dude!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,684 Posts
The Giulia would remain bigger after a serious collision, much bigger. The Giulia is also heavier than the 164 and feels so when you drive it.

The single most deleterious result of this obsession with making an inherently dangerous activity seem safe is the damage done to the ability of engineers to design efficient cars.

Now should you have the budget of a F1 engineering team the crash regulations might be circumvented.....

Let's not compare a 30+ year old car with a new one. 164 feel vs Giulia is like comparing my 1983 Apple IIe to my current 2017 Macbook Pro. They perform different. The Giulia is 3,632lbs and the 164 3,413lbs ~219lbs difference. (RWD model).

What's an efficient car to you?
 
41 - 60 of 217 Posts
Top