[velocedoc]

FCA/PSA will be a good merger IMHO as I sit here on the sidelines. Go to Italy and you see Renault and Citroen cars everywhere around the cities, so to speak. So those companies must be doing something right. The small cars with great mileage/reliability would be a good selling point over here, expanding the base for the marques under one umbrella. I don't know what PSA sells for larger sedans/sports coupes, so there must be something there that they want in their lines from FCA. It will be interesting to see how all of this plays out.

 

[PSk]

ossodisepia...you are absolutely right.

The main reason for turbocharged engines for mass produced low to medium priced vehicles is for gas mileage so they can get down overall average for all the cars they produce. Again and again and again I have seen tests of turbocharged small cars with small 4 cylinder turbo engines have incredibly good on paper gas mileage and this "only" occurs if the engine is off boost. In real world tests by auto magazines they constantly find, again and again and again. that they need the turbo boost to have any kind of performance and that if using boost is used continually then the gas mileage is way worse than an equivalent normally aspirated engine.

Also in street driving I in my opinion even with all these latest generation turbos they are still not as incisive in response as naturally aspirated engines when off boost and that they come on boost maybe at 1500rpm, when in street driving where I live I am very often below 1500rpm and what matters is 0-1500rpm and in this range normally aspirated engines are much better! Of course this pertains to combustion engines since electric engines are a whole different argument.

Yes you are all right, but the good thing about turbocharged engines, and hybrid engines, is that in normal puttering around they are as efficient as a smaller engine. Lets face it, even us Alfisti are not on the throttle all the time, especially if you have the family in the car, so in the REAL world they are more economical and that is actually a good thing. And also auto magazines don't drive like normal people because they are interested in measuring performance. 99% of people driving to work and back putter from one red traffic light to the next hating the experience completely.

I wish my Vitz was turbocharged. It's a great little car, all 3 cylinders and 1000cc of ~49kw of power, but sometimes passing requires more concentration and preparation work than my tired brain is prepared for. A turbocharger would make it perfect.

I wish also that my 156v6, had stop start or hybrid technology as when I'm stuck in traffic I have no interest in watching the fuel gauge go down just to hear the hum of the wonderful Busso engine. I much prefer to listen to it when it is actually working.
Pete
ps: I am actually surprised that now that we have dual clutch transmissions for the paddle shift brigade (so they can pretend they are changing gear) that we do not have engines that have cylinders separated by clutches, so when you are puttering from red traffic light to red light, the engine starts (yes I like stop start technology) in just 2 cylinders with the rest of the engine NOT moving at all (and therefore not wasting fuel through friction and pointless compression losses), then when you need acceleration the rest of the engine starts and a clutch disengages and away you go. Yes it would require separate camshaft driving mechanisms and balancing as a 2 cylinder and as the rest cylinders so that the different running conditions were always fully balanced. And yes the rest of the cylinders may engage at different times so the exhaust note might sound different, but heck 99% of people would not give a toss. Power and torque is only required for acceleration, so once up to a sensible cruising speed the car could resort back to a 2 cylinder. Yes you are dragging the weight of the rest of the engine around, but I bet that would be lighter than dragging heavy batteries around, even with another clutch and camshaft drive chain.

If I was designing a car, even if a one off, this is what I would do. We know this will work because my 1000cc Vitz cruises just as well, and quietly, at 100 km/h as any other car, including my 156v6, with 4 passengers.

 

[alfettapb]

Pete...interesting comments and engineering ideas.

However in London city driving cars are often in the 0-1500rpm and I want instant response in traffic. For small engined turbocharged cars you do not get that response unless on boost. The fiat 500 2cylinder turbo was meant to be a warm hatch and it was compared to a panda 100hp (1.4 naturally aspirated, from a few years ago), both with 100hp on an auto magazine and was found wanting in stop and go traffic, off boost, in on boost rev range, throttle response, sound, and fuel economy on boost compared with the panda 100hp which has incisive throttle response in sport, has a far wider rev range, is more linear in responses, better fuel economy overall and sounds better. That was just an example.

For larger engines cars like your 156v6 possible in future there will be electric add ons for all cars to made better gas mileage and more environmentally friendly we will have to see.

For the current Giulia engine I am sure I read articles that there is a 4 cylinder hybrid electric/gasoline engine setup already designed and built but we have not heard anything about it for the Giulia yet. It was meant to have 350hp and fill the gap in hp between the 4 cylinder and v6 engines. The v6 hybrid setup was meant to kickstart the v6 coupe before it was cancelled and produce 600hp in bursts.
The Giulia's are already electric ready with their drive by wire brakes that auto engineers suggest are relevant once electric motors are installed on the front or rear axles.
Maybe this technology and the hybrid v6 engine will first debut in the Maserati Alfieri which will use the Alfa v6 engine modified, if it makes it to production.

 

[Michael Smith]

0-1500 rpm is idling speed. No petrol engine of any sort is going to respond with much torque from idle speeds. Diesel engines maybe but not petrol.

Small engined cars cannot be driven around with less than 2,000 rpm on the tach with any reasonable expectation that stepping on the gas is going to produce anything from the engine other than the horrible groans of lugging.

No modern automatic transmission is going to let you drive like this and if you're driving a manual shift like this then you need an automatic. A paddle shift car is going to block an upshift at below 1,500 rpm unless you're not demanding additional torque.

Modern turbo engines pull strongly from 1,500 rpm but that doesn't mean you should drive them like that.

Sheesh.

 

[Michael Smith]

Larger displacement engines are being driven out of the market by turbo engines because of government mandated fuel economy, CO2 and emissions regulations. The naturally aspirated engine remains more popular than turbo or supercharged engines or these regulations WOULD NOT BE NECESSARY.

Obviously, this bs mind control by governments is working. No wonder democracy is in deep trouble. Nobody seems to be able to analyze cause and effect properly these days.

 

[Michael Smith]

If hybrid powertrains, or electric vehicles for that matter, made any sense then people would be flocking to buy them. No flocks of any such consumers willing to part with fistfuls of dollars has appeared anywhere on the planet so far.

Sure we CAN make hybrid powertrains and purely electric vehicles but who is deciding we should do so?

Government that's who.

Saints preserve us from citizens who cannot discern these insidious trends.

 

[PSk]

If hybrid powertrains, or electric vehicles for that matter, made any sense then people would be flocking to buy them. No flocks of any such consumers willing to part with fistfuls of dollars has appeared anywhere on the planet so far.

Not 100% true. Hybrid and electric vehicles are quite popular in New Zealand, even my parents have owned 2 and I see them all the time. And all our taxis are now hybrids. FYI - Norway has 49.10% electric cars (https://avtowow.com/countries-by-electric-car-use)

Please remember America, does not mean the whole world. Also remember America has low fuel prices to support their automotive industry.
Pete

 

[PSk]

Pete...interesting comments and engineering ideas.

However in London city driving cars are often in the 0-1500rpm and I want instant response in traffic. For small engined turbocharged cars you do not get that response unless on boost. The fiat 500 2cylinder turbo was meant to be a warm hatch and it was compared to a panda 100hp (1.4 naturally aspirated, from a few years ago), both with 100hp on an auto magazine and was found wanting in stop and go traffic, off boost, in on boost rev range, throttle response, sound, and fuel economy on boost compared with the panda 100hp which has incisive throttle response in sport, has a far wider rev range, is more linear in responses, better fuel economy overall and sounds better. That was just an example.

For larger engines cars like your 156v6 possible in future there will be electric add ons for all cars to made better gas mileage and more environmentally friendly we will have to see.

For the current Giulia engine I am sure I read articles that there is a 4 cylinder hybrid electric/gasoline engine setup already designed and built but we have not heard anything about it for the Giulia yet. It was meant to have 350hp and fill the gap in hp between the 4 cylinder and v6 engines. The v6 hybrid setup was meant to kickstart the v6 coupe before it was cancelled and produce 600hp in bursts.
The Giulia's are already electric ready with their drive by wire brakes that auto engineers suggest are relevant once electric motors are installed on the front or rear axles.
Maybe this technology and the hybrid v6 engine will first debut in the Maserati Alfieri which will use the Alfa v6 engine modified, if it makes it to production.

Good points. I have never driven in the UK. What does amaze me about modern cars is how well they perform at that low rev range you mention, i.e. 0 - 1500 rpm, and yes my Vitz doesn't do as well as the 156v6 there . The last turbocharged car I drove was a diesel so can't comment on the modern turbocharged petrol engine responsiveness.
Pete

 

[Rutlefan]

Re Norway, EVs have been heavily subsidized by the gov't; when the subsidies were pulled back some the take rate on EVs fell drastically. Ironically, it is said that the Norwegian gov't has so much money to hand out as subsidies because the export so much oil.

 

[PSk]

Ironically, it is said that the Norwegian gov't has so much money to hand out as subsidies because the export so much oil.

Oops by Norway ... and I've just learnt they are the 15th largest producer
Pete

 

[alfettapb]

0-1500 rpm is idling speed. No petrol engine of any sort is going to respond with much torque from idle speeds. Diesel engines maybe but not petrol.

Small engined cars cannot be driven around with less than 2,000 rpm on the tach with any reasonable expectation that stepping on the gas is going to produce anything from the engine other than the horrible groans of lugging.

No modern automatic transmission is going to let you drive like this and if you're driving a manual shift like this then you need an automatic. A paddle shift car is going to block an upshift at below 1,500 rpm unless you're not demanding additional torque.

Modern turbo engines pull strongly from 1,500 rpm but that doesn't mean you should drive them like that.

Sheesh.

My comments were absolutely valid and are the case with 2 of our city cars and the alfa romeo classic! You have not driven either of my cars but what I said pertains to all of them them, of which I have driven very many years. It would follow that many others in the same class have the same characteristics.
My alfetta 1.8 from 1976 has immense response from "below" 1500rpm in second gear, if you need throttle response so low. Fact! The torque of this engine is at very low revs when setup correctly and this has stayed with me as a marker against other cars from the period and since. The torque then tails off at 4,500 but still it suprises still today modren traffic with the response.
My Fiat panda 100hp 16v engine in sport mode also has the same very low torque at 1000rpm for instant torque and will then spin freely to 6500 if so wished.
OUr Fiat Punto 1.2 8 valve engine also has instant throttle response at those revs, though not as much as it is not a performance engine at all, though still zippy compared with todays small capacity 16v engines in the same class.

The turbocharged cars I have driven all share the same characteristics in that below 1500 or 2000 rpm depending on the car they have no response at all but pick up very well after depending when their boost starts, exactly like the auto journalists describe for similar engines. Now for open road driving this does not matter but for very congest city driving this is not the same and in stop and start traffic or when the speed limit is 20mph as in many sections of the city I drive in the car is very often below 2000 rpm.

 

[Michael Smith]

Not 100% true. Hybrid and electric vehicles are quite popular in New Zealand, even my parents have owned 2 and I see them all the time. And all our taxis are now hybrids. FYI - Norway has 49.10% electric cars (https://avtowow.com/countries-by-electric-car-use)

Please remember America, does not mean the whole world. Also remember America has low fuel prices to support their automotive industry.
Pete

No they aren't. I've been to NZ many times. Hardly any EV or hybrids on your roads. You are just plain making that up.

Now the current NZ government of socialist loonies is keen on subsidizing the introduction of electric and hybrid vehicles but market penetration to date is so tiny as to be alomost unmeasurable. Mind you with NZ access to hydro power the parallel with Norway might be apt, except for having very little oil or gas relatively speaking.

 

[Michael Smith]

My comments were absolutely valid and are the case with 2 of our city cars and the alfa romeo classic! You have not driven either of my cars but what I said pertains to all of them them, of which I have driven very many years. It would follow that many others in the same class have the same characteristics.
My alfetta 1.8 from 1976 has immense response from "below" 1500rpm in second gear, if you need throttle response so low. Fact! The torque of this engine is at very low revs when setup correctly and this has stayed with me as a marker against other cars from the period and since. The torque then tails off at 4,500 but still it suprises still today modren traffic with the response.
My Fiat panda 100hp 16v engine in sport mode also has the same very low torque at 1000rpm for instant torque and will then spin freely to 6500 if so wished.
OUr Fiat Punto 1.2 8 valve engine also has instant throttle response at those revs, though not as much as it is not a performance engine at all, though still zippy compared with todays small capacity 16v engines in the same class.

The turbocharged cars I have driven all share the same characteristics in that below 1500 or 2000 rpm depending on the car they have no response at all but pick up very well after depending when their boost starts, exactly like the auto journalists describe for similar engines. Now for open road driving this does not matter but for very congest city driving this is not the same and in stop and start traffic or when the speed limit is 20mph as in many sections of the city I drive in the car is very often below 2000 rpm.

?????

You live in a different world than I do. Turbo engines have been delivering virtually peak torque from 1,500 rpm or so for thirty years now. Current turbos are even more responsive. Petrol engines cannot deliver "immense response" from below 1,500 rpm. You will need to find the torque curves from the engines you describe to convince me. Just btw, peak torque on a 1976 1,779 cc Alfetta engine only came in at 4,400 rpm. There is no way that engine could have the response you describe at 1,500 rpm, impossible. And I've driven the 2.0 litre versions of those cars and owned the V6 version.

Actually, no 1.2 litre or even 1.8 litre petrol engine from the. '70's is capable of delivering much of anything by way of throttle response at any rpm compared to an engine of say 3.0 litres.

 

[PSk]

Monthly electric and hybrid light vehicle registrations | Ministry of Transport

www.transport.govt.nz

Pete

 

[Michael Smith]

Monthly electric and hybrid light vehicle registrations | Ministry of Transport

www.transport.govt.nz

Pete

About 2% of total and cumulatively less than 0.5% of total. Showing a number of EV registrations means nothing unless you compare to totals. A kiwi has more chance of being involved in a MVA than seeing an EV, even including all the hybrids.

NZ has about the same market penetration for EV of all types as any other country. Prepare to see a few more now your whacky government has decided to heavily subsidize their purchase. Note that at least NZ intends to fund these subsidies by adding taxes to sales of ICE vehicles. Since your car purchase taxes are already ridiculously high maybe nobody will notice the additional tax...but I think they will and will express their discontent at the next opportunity to vote your current crop of greenie weenies out if office.

 

[PSk]

Just so you know, I like our so called greenie government. So please give it a rest.

And as I said previously, I see EVs and hybrids all the time, and would buy one if I had thought it would work for my drive to work. As its all open road, it wouldn't so I bought a little Toyota Vitz (returns 40 US mpg no matter how hard I drive it)
Pete

 

[Michael Smith]

Just so you know, I like our so called greenie government. So please give it a rest.

And as I said previously, I see EVs and hybrids all the time, and would buy one if I had thought it would work for my drive to work. As its all open road, it wouldn't so I bought a little Toyota Vitz (returns 40 US mpg no matter how hard I drive it)
Pete

Of course you're seeing more EV. There are more EV. But that doesn't mean there are a lot of EV. You are experiencing observer bias. When Kiwis were buying basically zero EV annually you would really notice the odd one here and there. As fleet totals increase you tend to notice this change less as time goes by. Last year there was a surge of EV purchases by kiwis, also a surge in total vehicle purchases largely due to increased population. Miles travelled increased but miles travelled per vehicle dropped.

EV market penetration measured annually increased dramatically from a cumulative average of well under 0.5% to around 2% or maybe 3%. That means you were 5 times more likely to see an EV, more in urban areas where I suspect 99% of these EV were located. But 5 times more likely isn't the same as "a lot". It means that for every hundred cars you noticed in the past less than one would have been an EV. Now it may be as many as 3.

Your personal buying decision is evidence that EV purchasing in NZ is largely virtue signalling by greenie weenies. As it is everywhere else. It makes no economic sense, no aesthetic sense and no practical sense whatsoever. There appears to be a very low level of people who see an EV as a virtuous purchase and basically zero people who buy an EV because it makes sense to do so. Market penetration of EV in the absence of subsidy or regulatory favouring plateaus at about 2% of the fleet and is unlikely to expand above that unless regulations force the change or subsidies lure in a few more suckers.